Samsung allegedly in talks with Sony to get the Xperia Z5 camera sensor for the Galaxy S7
1. Baracus (Posts: 223; Member since: 15 Sep 2012)
Cameras need to be compressed less not more.
6. FaisalWibowo11 (Posts: 163; Member since: 12 Aug 2013)
It's not compression, dude. From Z5 samples i've seen all over the net, 8MP images weigh at 4-5MB (some even touch 5.5MB). Quite larger than iPhone 6s' 12MP images which only weigh 3MB on average.
In my opinion it's image processing, it still has traces of oversharpening and not so good noise reduction (better than last year Z-Flagship though). Sony needs to fix that so its image quality can be superior to those of competitor, especially in low light.
Even at current time, Z5's 23MP image is sharper than S6's 16MP image at daylight. If Sony balances the image processing then Sony will have image quality much better then any of its competitors in all conditions.
9. Baracus (Posts: 223; Member since: 15 Sep 2012)
Compression is just another word for image processing for anything involved in converting the raw image to the Jpeg.
38. Jango (Posts: 305; Member since: 24 Oct 2014)
But have you even seen the camera comparisons online? The Z5 camera is nearly as bad as the Z3. It simply isn't up to par with the competition. Samsung currently have the best sensor. I call this a false flag.
44. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
I've had a chance to use different Z5s and somehow one of them gives great photos, especially the sharpness. It's as good as (or in some situations, better than) the Galaxy Note 5, the other one is as bad as the Z3/Z3+. Both of them are prototypes and the last one give average result, sometimes great but most of the time is inferior to the Note 5.
I'm just guessing but I feel like the Z5's having some trouble with it's softwares across devices, not because it's meant to be bad
60. Jango (Posts: 305; Member since: 24 Oct 2014)
This has got to be one of the worst excuses ever made
69. DoggyDangerous (Posts: 776; Member since: 28 Aug 2015)
Surely Software is the problem bcoz Samsung and lg are also using Sony made sensors but they out class Sony in image quality. But why Samsung wants to put 23mp sensor? It will produce rediculously large jpeg files. File size of 10mb or more is not practical. I take and email pictures with my mobile phone on daily basis. I know how problematic it is to email more than 5 pics at a time. Google has done a great job by putting 12mp sensor with larger pixel size instead of more resolution.
This 23mp sensor should be used in Lumia devices only bcoz we can create 2mp and 5mp preview pics with great quality and lesser file size without any loss in image quality.
79. cheetah2k (Posts: 1521; Member since: 16 Jan 2011)
Sony should swap their Z5 sensors for the S7 Exynos CPU and get away from this Qualcomm fktardrubbishoverheatingpieceofs**t
24. hellbread (Posts: 309; Member since: 21 Nov 2014)
They should sell them battery management tricks also...
26. pwnarena (Posts: 1129; Member since: 15 Feb 2013)
samsung is already doing a great job in that department.
the s6 outscores the z5 in the gsmarena battery test even with its smaller battery.
actually, sony's battery management deteriorated if we were to believe gsmarena's tests. the z3 compact reached 102 hours while the z5 compact barely scratched the 80-hour level despite having a bigger battery and the same display size and resolution.
30. UglyFrank (Posts: 1601; Member since: 23 Jan 2014)
You know that is the S810 though.
If the Z5 Compact it had the S801/S805/7420 etc. It would has probably got more than 102 hours standby time.
40. Taters (banned) (Posts: 6474; Member since: 28 Jan 2013)
I had the Z3 with the SD801 and it lasted 3 days on kit kat but it halved to 1 1/2 to 2 days on lollipop.
I get the same results, 1 and half to 2 days on my gs6 after I turn the gps off.
So I think Samsung is fine there and just chose performance and looks over battery life like they have to in order to stay on top.
33. FaisalWibowo11 (Posts: 163; Member since: 12 Aug 2013)
SD 810 is one thing to blame. Battery management on software side, Sony is doing better than LG, HTC, Xiaomi, and others. Logically put, let's say this (from GSMa battery test):
- Z3 Compact, 2600mah battery, SD 801, 4.6"HD screen: 101h
- Z5 Compact, 2700mah battey, SD 810, 4.6" HD screen: 86h
If Z5 compact were to use the same SD 801 as Z3 compact, then endurance rating will eclipse 115h mark. If Z5 compact uses SD 805, or Exynos 7420 it'll pass 130h+.
And SD810 is one reason I won't replace my good old Z2 with Z5.
66. UglyFrank (Posts: 1601; Member since: 23 Jan 2014)
Not bad at all but considering it could be better and you know that it is due to a bad SoC, you feel somewhat short changed.
3. pwnarena (Posts: 1129; Member since: 15 Feb 2013)
sony likely won't say no.
they can just develop a better one for their next device.
IF their mobile division still exists by then.
10. vincelongman (Posts: 4150; Member since: 10 Feb 2013)
IMO its likely Sony will say yes
They did make the custom IMX240 for Samsung and many custom sensors for Apple
27. pwnarena (Posts: 1129; Member since: 15 Feb 2013)
i said won't say no.
wil say yes.
they can't afford to lose a big time business opportunity like orders from samsung.
4. AZNHA (unregistered)
good luck , samsung
5. kkmkk (Posts: 471; Member since: 06 May 2013)
i dont think that this sensor is good enough for the s7 TBH
7. RajRicardo (Posts: 386; Member since: 28 Feb 2014)
mixed with Samsungs image processing algorithms, it will be a killer.
8. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
the IMX240 is a special version of the IMX230 (in terms of technology and features) that Sony made exclusively for Samsung, and who can say that it's bad?
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the post processing that define if the result photos are great or not
11. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
IMX240 has the same technology as ISOCELL(actually IMX240 is ISOCELL that manufactured by Sony)
IMX230 doesn't have PDAF and isolated pixels like ISOCELL do
21. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
IMX230 is different than samsung's ISOCELL but they have the same set of features such as PDAF and realtime HDR
btw if it's Samsung's tech and Sony's just helping them with the manufacturing process then it should still be called ISOCELL, not one of the IMX series
32. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
IMX230 Release date was April 2015 but IMX240 was used in galaxy note4 for the first time(in 2014) so how it can be "special version of the IMX230 " ?
btw none of Sony sensor's had PDAF before 2015
your right about IMX series and Sony name. But I have a question from you
can you find any information about IMX240?like Release date and technology's and etc.?(from Sony's official website)(as you may know IMX240 is a top flagship sensor!)
34. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
"if it's Samsung's tech and Sony's just helping them with the manufacturing process then it should still be called ISOCELL, not one of the IMX series"
Yeah that's true, just like what Apple do with their A series chipsets.
Samsung also bragging about their ISOCELL sensor in S5 but we don't see it with their latest flagships.
48. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
that's simple, because they use both the ISOCELL and IMX sensors on the S6/Note 5 and it's nowhere close to easy to promote a phone with 2 different sensors inside without confusing the consumers
and the reason why they bragged about the first ISOCELL sensor was because they need people to know about it and what it can do, in order to help them improve upon it (or many other reasons that you can think of, i dont know)
31. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
Lol... Very obviously you do not know anything about what you're talking about, and maybe that's why you make up the story.
Sony IMX240 is not the so-called ISOCELL that manufactured by Sony.
Sony IMX240 is pure Sony sensor that manufactured based on Sony image sensor technology.
Samsung may be the first to use the DTI technology but they were not the first to develop the technology and you can also find a patent on DTI from various different companies.
Let me show differences in implementation between Sony and Samsung DTI tech.
As you can see Sony sensor is doing a better isolation thanks to Sony on chip microlens design.
And I think there is a reason why Samsung send their phones that using Sony sensor to most well known reviewers.
IMX230 has more PDAF points than any ISOCELL sensor on the market and it is true so far there is no info if IMX230 uses DTI technology, but since IMX230 supports HDR features up to 4K that previously not available in the first generation of Sony Exmor RS sensor i'm pretty sure IMX230 is already uses Sony DTI tech.
More info about IMX230.
This is problably a sneak peak for the image sensor in Samsung flagships.
"Sony also plans to extend the lineup by adding a 16 effective megapixels stacked CMOS image sensor equipped with image plane phase detection AF and HDR imaging functions by the end of the next fiscal year."
35. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
oh your right! can you explain me what's that date for?!
(Sony 7| 2015.9.16)!
and can you find any sensor since 2014 that have both PDAF and isolated pixels from Sony?
45. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
one possible explaination: Samsung made a deal with Sony to implement the IMX240 first on their Note 4, but at the same time ask Sony to keep quiet about the IMX230 (in exchanged for money of course) until later so they (samsung) can brag about how they got the first place with the best sensor in town.
BTW I looked it up, the IMX230 was out since Nov. 2014, not 2015!
Here's the proof:http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/N
51. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
"ask Sony to keep quiet about the IMX230 (in exchanged for money of course"
are you serious ? what kind of joke was that?!
ISOCELL Announcement was in September,2013 !
galaxy note 4 Announced in September,2014(two month earlier!)
and IMX230 Announced in November,2014!(two month later) and Shipment date was April, 2015
btw as the link above from Genza
Sony patented DTI tech in 2015.9.16(not used and announced yet!) while Samsung was announced better tech(F-DTI+VTG and PDAF) in September,2013
52. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
it's not a joke, it's business
it's the same thing Sony's done with the Xperia Z1 and its IMX200 sensor and now it's the Xperia Z5 and its IMX300 sensor
49. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
I can't find any documentation about image sensor with both PDAF and isolated pixels from Sony in 2014 because when it comes to custom image sensor for other manufacturer Sony don't provide any documantation for it.
That is why you can't find any official info about the image sensor in Lumia 920 series, iPhone, G4 and Samsung flagships.
I have proved that you are wrong about IMX230, now can you please show me any reliable source that shows that IMX240 build upon Samsung ISOCELL technology???
Can you also tell me why they not bragging about the ISOCELL in their Note 4 or their latest flagships like what they have done with Galaxy S5???
And why the model number is IMX240 not S2K4P0XX or something like that like the rest of their ISOCELL sensor???
The Apple A9 are fabricated by Samsung and TSMC but they still called it as their own custom designed SoC with model number APLXXX not Exynos XXX.
62. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
PDAF and isolated pixels (F-DTI+VGT) are whole new tech and need to Announce. and you think Sony just give it up to Samsung in 2013 (to be Announced by Samsung!)
so why Sony most Announce PDAF tech in November,2014 !! and again Announce DTI tech in 2016!!!?
can you tell me how you find documentation about IMX230 that announced new tech like PDAF for the first time?
its so simple!
Sony cant provide any documentation because its not Sony's tech
btw you just prove that IMX230 has PDAF nothing more.
I cant put any links just yet(coz of limitations) but you can search for ISOCELL vs. IMX240 who will show you that the difference is about just a little image processing difference. so that mean both have the same technology(same details and same noise level and same low light performance)
I don't get it ?! why you think they most bragging about old tech!!
before update it was shown as S5K2P8 ! but after update its change to IMX240!!
70. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
btw Exynos SOC is designed by ARM(both cpu and gpu)
with your logic it cant be named as "Samsung Exynos" ?!
75. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
Hahah... it seems you don't have any logical way of thinking.
PDAF and isolated pixels (F-DTI+VGT) are not whole new tech it actually pretty old but Samsung is the first manufacturer who combine the 3 different tech into image sensor.
"Sony cant provide any documentation because its not Sony's tech"
Lol... are you serious??? If what you said is true that means the image sensor in Xperia Z5 series, a6000, RX100IV, a7S series and a7R II is not Sony sensor. Because i can find any official documentation about all those sensor.
And in case you didn't know at first Sony doesn't provide any details about the image sensor in Xperia Z1.
Yeah i know you can show me a comparison between ISOCELL vs IMX240 but i doubt it comes from very reliable source, it's either from Samsung fanboy or Sony fanboy.
"I don't get it ?! why you think they most bragging about old tech!!
before update it was shown as S5K2P8 ! but after update its change to IMX240!!"
Dude did you ever see a comparison between the Original ISOCELL in S5 vs IMX240? The IMX240 beat the crap of the original ISOCELL in any situations.
So if it's true that the IMX240 is based on ISOCELL Samsung must brags about it because it's newer and better version.
Just like what Sony do with their second gen of Exmor RS sensor in April 2014 that support real time HDR at full resolution (13MP) @30fps, 4K @30fps and 1080p @60fps.
Now you need to show me some proof to me how you can change the model number by software updates.
As far as i know from the Note 4 teardown the sensor is IMX240.
78. S.A.S.P (Posts: 17; Member since: 06 Sep 2015)
now your jumping off the topic
first you need to answer my questions!
and do you have any idea about this?!
"ISOCELL Announcement was in September,2013 !
galaxy note 4 Announced in September,2014(two month earlier!)
and IMX230 Announced in November,2014!(two month later) and Shipment date was April, 2015
btw as the link above from Genza
Sony patented DTI tech in 2015.9.16(not used and announced yet!) while Samsung was announced better tech(F-DTI+VTG and PDAF) in September,2013"
second you need to prove what's your saying. like:
"PDAF and isolated pixels (F-DTI+VGT) are not whole new tech it actually pretty old but Samsung is the first manufacturer who combine the 3 different tech into image sensor."
I want you to prove:
"PDAF, F-DTI, VGT was announced for mobile sensor's before ISOCELL"
if you cant find any documentation about a specific sensor, that mean nothing new or important tech to mention for that sensor
btw-I don't know why you couldn't find information about a7s sensor!!?(PA says im not allow to put links yet!!! so I cant ) just try harder man!!
please can you search before you talk or comparing something?!
The Original ISOCELL in S5 doesn't have OIS
while IMX240 in Galaxy note4 had OIS !(or maybe other hardware difference like improved optic parts or etc.)
Some Exynos version's of Galaxy note 4 were using ISOCELL sensor.
about changing model number by software you can search in XDA forum-note 4 section or search for "Different camera sensors? Isocell vs imx240?"
I have note 4 and it happened to me too!
12. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
Disappointing. I was hoping for RGB sensor. The z5 is still not as good as S6 despite what dxomark says. Yes, it has better stabilisation and focus but everything else is worse.
13. maccess (Posts: 742; Member since: 16 Jan 2013)
Dont forget that sony's software processing never as good as samsung's one..
14. abdoualgeria (Posts: 324; Member since: 27 Jul 2015)
imx300 + samsung algorithms process = best photophone ever made
16. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
Maybe. But RWB sensors are way better.
37. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
Lol... how can you say that RWB is better??? Just because Samsung shows you some nice looking slideshow???
You can say whatever you want but the proof is in the pudding, when Sony, Samsung, Omnivision and several other companies to send samples of their image sensor to their consumers.
Most of them prefer sony sensor, although the price is not as cheap as sensors from other companies and the quality of the sensor sony also proved to be one of the important components of all the best camera in the world.
Unfortunately, Sony has not been able to optimize their image processing even their Alpha series cameras are no better than their Xperia smartphones.
42. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
RWB is a better technology. And all sensor manufacturers are working on it, not only Samsung.
It's simply superior to RGB. How are you even questioning it? Maybe you don't know how it works.
56. marorun (Posts: 3366; Member since: 30 Mar 2015)
We shall see when its come out if its better or not.
Many technology thats came out lately was more to add to the price of the phones than to improve them...
65. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
RWB technology is actually pretty old and Aptina is already make RWB sensor since 2013.
As you can see the RWB is already available but the RWB sensor still not good enough to reolace the conventional RGB sensor.
My problem is how you can say that RWB is better even when you have no proof to back up your claims?
I'm not an expert but i know a thing or two about image sensor.
As far as i know RB will get far less light than W pixels, meaning they'll probably be noisier, and hence G derived from W-(R+B) will be noisy too.
Then again, you could almost get away with just using the W channel as G or W is roughly Y in JPEG's YUV.
White pixels also saturated earlier than Red and Blue pixels possibly limiting dynamic range.
Showing some nice looking slideshow and talking about theory is easy but making it into a reality is not that easy.
And so far there is no image sensor manufacturers can make the actual RWB sensor that is overall better than the RGB sensor.
68. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
All the pixels will get equal amount of light as they have equal size. This just craps on your alleged theory above. And you can sample G twice.
Yes, the tech is new but I would prefer something new over something boring like the Sony sensor. I'm not going to buy a phone in 2016 anyway, so the more innovation the better.
76. Genza (Posts: 537; Member since: 12 Mar 2014)
Hahaha... i think you doesn't like to see always Sony take the spot light when it comes to image sensor from your beloved company.
The tech is new??? Dude did you even read Samsung just do the same thing that Aptina have done with RWB sensor in 2013.
I think when it comes to image sensor Samsung is way more boring than Sony because other than DTI in ISOCELL samsung just redoing what others already have done.
If you still think that RWB is overall better than RGB you need to read this publications from Eric R Fossum an American physicist and engineer known for developing the CMOS image sensor.
See table II to see a comparison between various different CFA.
81. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
I'm just not a fan of old tech. In a 2016 phone, I would never want to see a 2015 sensor, screen SoC or basically any tech.
I was disappointed when Samsung used IMX240 in S6 as it was already used in 2014.
It's nothing about brand loyalty. I'm not brand loyal at all. I've got an Apple tablet, Samsung phone, lenovo laptop, custom desktop, Sony TV, audio technica headphones and so on..... My next phone will most likely not be a Samsung, and definitely not S7.
I just like to see new tech. I don't care if it fails. At least they would try. And yes, it's new on smartphones.
15. Sidewinder (Posts: 411; Member since: 15 Jan 2015)
Guess sony's image processing is to be blamed here.. I saw a comparison of z5 with s6 on YouTube and the reviewer had a hard time getting the z5 to focus a close object
28. pwnarena (Posts: 1129; Member since: 15 Feb 2013)
please show us that video because in almost all video comparisoins i've seen, the z5 never struggled.
that recombu comparison, though, was dumb because he wanted to get a macro shot of a spider but instead of getting close to the spider, he moved away from the spider. how does that make sense? you want a macro and you are pulling away from the subject and you complain that you can't focus on the spider?
55. buccob (Posts: 2518; Member since: 19 Jun 2012)
remember that the Z3 and Z5 line has a wide angle lens which in turn has a "far" focusing distance as minimum... My Z3 Compact can focus only at about 10cm (4 inches) if I go closer it can't focus, but on the other hand, I can lock focus at 10cm and then zoom in and have a nice 8MP close up.
57. marorun (Posts: 3366; Member since: 30 Mar 2015)
Yeah some ppl just cant use it correctly.
72. sunjay140 (Posts: 118; Member since: 19 Mar 2015)
Maybe that youtuber should learn how to use a camera.
22. kent-gaga (Posts: 497; Member since: 10 Apr 2012)
I guess that's for the future
Maybe they will be using those new sensors in 2 or 3 years from now
And another big problem is that there might not be enough facility to mass-produce those sensors in time for the S7's arrival
54. marorun (Posts: 3366; Member since: 30 Mar 2015)
I disagree its only the camera app thats not as good.
I tested both the S6 and the Z3 using Camera FV-5 app ( third party camera app ) and the Z3 beat the S6 on EVERYTHING beside focus speed.
ITs has better colors , low light , clean movement capture with no blur ect.
But yeah Samsung camera app is very good but not the best ( i had better result with camera FV-5 on the S6 as well compared to stock apps.. but difference was bigger on the Sony phone as the camera app suck.. )
61. TyrionLannister (unregistered)
I totally believe you. Z3 has much better optics than S6.
64. SYSTEM_LORD (Posts: 427; Member since: 05 Oct 2015)
This wouldn't be sarcasm, now would it?