Microsoft banks on the success of Android to help finance Windows Phone
As it turns out, sales of Android powered phones are actually subsidizing the cost of producing and improving Windows Phone. Nomura Securities analyst Rick Sherlund says that Microsoft currently takes in $2 billion a year in licensing fees from Android related patents. The analyst believes that 95% of that is profit, allowing the software giant to make more money from Google's open source OS than it does from Windows Phone.
According to Sherlund, Microsoft uses that tidy sum of cash to offset the red ink that flows from the Entertainment and Devices division that includes Windows Phone (and also happens to include gaming console Xbox). The analyst notes that if you take away the profits from the Android licensing fees, Entertainment and Devices would show a loss of $2.5 billion. Besides Windows Phone and Xbox, that group includes Skype. Sherlund says that Xbox is responsible for $2 billion of the red ink. He suggests that Xbox be spun out of Microsoft and that the Android patent profits are hiding the hemmoraging of red ink caused by the gaming console.
For Microsoft, the licensing fees are like an annuity that gives the company the luxury of time as it continues to fine tune Windows Phone to make it a more competitive platform. And a report earlier this year predicted that Microsoft would earn $8.8 billion off its Android based patent licenses by 2017. That buys plenty of R&D and marketing for Windows Phone in the near future.
source: BusinessInsider via MobileBurn
1. dorianb (Posts: 559; Member since: 24 Oct 2012)
One of the few times I can say MS has done the right thing. It looks like they wanted 'reasonable' fees for their patent portfolio & got it. Deciding not to go the "Hell naw! I wants my dimes & pennies too" route followed by tons of lawsuits. They have a steady cash flow so they can develop their own products efficiently. (Don't start. I know what I just typed.)
7. Long1 (banned) (Posts: 399; Member since: 18 May 2013)
Read it good. This money MS take from the Android VENDORS. Not from Android(Google). Those vendors will pay that royalties , no matter what OS they are using. And they pay to anyone who has patent. Of course MS generate more mone from Android devices, then the iOS devices- because of the market share,
What a crap article.
By the way, PArena should calculate how much MS and MS-Windows related vendors pay to Google(Samsung, Sony, LG, Ericsson, Simens....), too. Right?
Hope this will be the next PA article. LOL
12. dorianb (Posts: 559; Member since: 24 Oct 2012)
Tell me where I said MS was getting the royalties for the patents from Google.
The point was they received what they are due without going the 'Apple Thermonuclear' route. Plus at a fair price because you don'y hear a bunch of other companies whining about MS being unfair.
Maybe you are over reading the article.
18. Long1 (banned) (Posts: 399; Member since: 18 May 2013)
OK . Sorry. I thought you are agree with the article.
The 'Apple Thermonuclear' was not about royalties, but to kill Android. Those "rectangle" and "round corners" ...."patents" come later. Because Apple pay much , but don't take much back, like the real tech companies do.
By the way such iArticles like this, are also part of the "'Apple Thermonuclear". They should bash Android(Google) no matter how.
37. dorianb (Posts: 559; Member since: 24 Oct 2012)
I get what you are saying now. I actually like Apple (iOS), Microsoft (Win8), & Google (Android) products pretty evenly. I just wis they were more like car companies in the war that Toyota doesn't sue Nissan or the like when they put LED turn signals on their cars, then everyone follows suit. Or VW/Volvo putting side impact airbags in pretty early in then suing Lancia for doing it too. I know it's not apples to apples, though I hope you get my general broad point. (Male your product good enough & you won't have to worry about the other guy doing something similar.)
24. designerfx (Posts: 76; Member since: 26 Mar 2013)
absolutely untrue. This is the apple thermonuclear route. This is how it works, and why they're screwed. They are avoiding lawsuits with google like the plague while lobbying the gov't to try to avoid the glaring antitrust issue.
23. designerfx (Posts: 76; Member since: 26 Mar 2013)
patent shakedowns are absolutely *never* the right thing, and always the wrong thing.
30. robinlim85 (Posts: 86; Member since: 03 May 2013)
i always let my buddy borrow my homework,is that a right thing?
my university punished us for plagarism,me for supporting it
2. UrbanPhantom (Posts: 949; Member since: 30 Oct 2012)
MSFT (long) might not be a bad idea ;o)
26. Finalflash (Posts: 2337; Member since: 23 Jul 2013)
It would actually be a terrible idea. It's kind of like the rich spoiled brat syndrome. As they get free money they will continue to flush it down the drain without giving it any value. That is why WP will be slow to improve and Xbox will keep losing them money for a long time. If they were losing their own money they would definitely try their hardest but since they aren't it's all a half hearted effort. Eventually the loses don't offset the gains and competitors overtake their cash cows and then they wake up too far off the cliff to change course (a very well known fruit company comes to mind).
3. Gemmol (Posts: 670; Member since: 09 Nov 2011)
great job i would of done the same but instead of earn 2 billion from droids i would make it 3 to 4 billion
5. Reality_Check (Posts: 277; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)
Well, then I would've sued you for overpricing essential patents and wasted 1 billion on lawsuits than pay you 3-4 billion.
6. Gemmol (Posts: 670; Member since: 09 Nov 2011)
that would of been cool, I would respect you or your company to sue back, but I am sure those companies that gave in so quick would not of sue back, they would of lost more in the long run......look at everyone who sign with microsoft there was no need for them to do a apple vs samsung, it seems they got some really good patents that make others give in, the only company I seen try to fight back was amazon, but they end up giving didn't they? well whatever it is from watching on the outside it seems microsoft could of squeeze out 3 or 4 dollars more from each handset but they made deals with some that they lessen it if they make a windows phone like HTC......but yeah man we would of had fun suing each other
28. Finalflash (Posts: 2337; Member since: 23 Jul 2013)
No they couldn't because I'm pretty sure MS fought to dime as are these "cross licensing" agreements. The companies that are licensing these patents need them for their laptops and PCs too because they aren't mobile related patents, instead they are for things like wifi and such. MS is just sick good with their accounting and have stuck these agreements into their devices section so they can report a "profit" every quarter instead of a massive loss as mentioned in the article.
10. marbovo (Posts: 658; Member since: 16 May 2013)
If you would make 3 to 4 billions, what are you doing here on PA commenting the article instead of doing something good with you billion dollars since you are very good in earning money??? Go back to work or your boss will fire you.
34. Gemmol (Posts: 670; Member since: 09 Nov 2011)
either you did not read my post properly or I hit a note with your love for droid, well either way, I was saying since they own the patents, they should squeeze some more out of each company, instead of earning 2 billion make it 3 billion
4. Reality_Check (Posts: 277; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)
Analyse each patent and try to come up with alternatives.
8. alterecho (Posts: 1096; Member since: 23 Feb 2012)
Isn't Nokia sitting on a massive pile of patents? Why don't they earn from licensing fee?
9. shy2papa (Posts: 238; Member since: 23 Jan 2010)
With all that money WP is still s**t, Wow MS would make even more money if nokia went android #Just Saying
11. ilia1986 (unregistered)
If Nokia went Android from the start, they would probably have 40-50% Android marketshare, matched with Samsung as of now.
But of course we all know how that decision turned out. I wonder what Steve "Using Android is like pissing in own pants" Elop would say now. Oh, wait I forgot. He retired after selling Nokia to MS and getting a pile of cash in return.
13. ballaonnabudget (Posts: 38; Member since: 15 May 2013)
Steve Elop now works for Microsoft and is a candidate to become the next CEO. Clearly you're uninformed but once i saw your nokia + android comment I already knew that.
14. ilia1986 (unregistered)
Maybe I am uninformed (I could care less about elop after he sold Nokia to MS) but he did say it a few years ago.
43. rusticguy (Posts: 2828; Member since: 11 Aug 2012)
Investors are rallyting behind Alan Mulally to be next CEO of M$
40. snowgator (Posts: 3454; Member since: 19 Jan 2011)
I love revisionist history. There is zero way of knowing what would have happened if Nokia went Android.
40%-50% of Android sales? Well, I say Nokia would have had less the LG, fewer then Motorola, and Casio would have.doubled them up.
So there. Prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't. Those thoughts are like Chasing the Wind. Sort of like any other thoughts about how Nokia would be rolling in cash and on easy street.
50. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
Actually, there is a way of knowing, Snow. Right now Windows Phone has a paltry 4ish percent market share, depending on where you look. Sales of most Windows Phones have been utterly abysmal. However, one manufacturer stands above the rest by a large margin: Nokia. Nokia sells about 90ish percent of all Windows Phones, from the reports I've seen, and seem to be the only reason WP is a blip on the radar at all.
Given that Nokia manages to sell phones saddled with an OS the public has largely given the middle finger to, imagine how they'd do running an OS which currently holds 80 percent worldwide market share? Nokia is an iconic brand that's even well recognized in the United States, which they all but abandoned for years on end. They've long been known for their durability and reliability. Hell, my mom's 2003 Nokia bar phone is still her only cell device. Worldwide they used to utterly dominate, but declined due to their inability to adapt themselves and Symbian to the changing market.
If Nokia had doubled down on Android instead of Windows Phone, with the kind of devices they've already put out, they would have dominated, and even I might have bought one at one point, my loyalty to Motorola notwithstanding.
And even if they didn't utterly dominate, they would have more marketshare than LG, Motorola, and Casio put together at the very least.
I bet you that if you put out a survey worldwide asking smartphone owners who have passed on the Lumias whether Android would make them reconsider, you would get a whopping, resounding "YES!!!!"
29. shy2papa (Posts: 238; Member since: 23 Jan 2010)
@rodneyej1 Well its not that bad I love Android IOS and BB10 but, but windows phone still has a long way to go to match the other OS but I can't believe I am saying this windows phone is fast and easy to use but for me personally speaking to much restriction and I am all about customersation being a tech geek and big fan of gadgets
35. Gemmol (Posts: 670; Member since: 09 Nov 2011)
I do no customizing I think this is why I feel that when I leave my note for the 1520 I will be fine
32. pookiewood (Posts: 631; Member since: 05 Mar 2012)
Y'all KEEP on saying that but where has that gotten HTC? The HTC One is one of the Best phones to ever be released yet HTC is still sinking. Samsung owns Android now and Google can't even beat them (Moto).
47. elitewolverine (Posts: 3809; Member since: 28 Oct 2013)
Everyday a fed up droid user, with their HTC One's, and their s2's and Huawei's and other low end phones that simply trouble some, see me on my windows phone. Bam, sale of a 521. Show them a s4 and 925 together, bam 925 sold.
Sure it lacks in 'custom' but honestly, there is a single 'custom' droid that has wowed me, and this comes from someone that rooted his old droids.
48. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
Every day, you say?
Well, interestingly enough, the few Windows Phone users I get commonly have issues plaguing their devices too, including some fairly crippling ones, and between that and no app support they eye Android and iOS for their future phones.
Bam, sale of a 521 or 925! But will that customer remain happy? That is the question to be answered at the end of their ownership period, and so far I've seen Windows Phone wanting of resounding customer experiences.
On the other hand, while not everyone I've sold an Android phone to has remained happy with their devices, I've been in one spot long enough that some of my old customers I started selling to as a relative noob 2 years ago are starting to filter back in. The results? So far no major complaints. In the coming months we'll see if that trend holds.
In the meantime, your belligerence is not appreciated whatsoever.
51. elitewolverine (Posts: 3809; Member since: 28 Oct 2013)
Awesome...I know a good salesman when I see one. The difference of calling somone belligerent. I guess I struck a nerve.
And how happy, up to you, everyone sees it through their glasses. I am in tech, I am the last person anyone talks to before we send out new phones for warranty.
Neither of us can be right nor wrong, but I could tell your 'truth' and 'personality' when you call me belligerent on a observation.
16. jroc74 (Posts: 5647; Member since: 30 Dec 2010)
"As it turns out, sales of Android powered phones are actually subsidizing the cost of producing and improving Windows Phone."
This isnt anything new. Many of us have already stated this over the past 2 years...lol. Android is a household name now, is everywhere. Many of us speculated this already seeing how lil market share WP has.
17. PBXtech (Posts: 1032; Member since: 21 Oct 2013)
Google makes a lot of money from Android due to the Play store, it's not just ad revenue. It's well worth it for them to pay the license fees and do business the way they have been.
19. sprockkets (Posts: 1601; Member since: 16 Jan 2012)
" And a report earlier this year predicted that Microsoft would earn $8.8 billion off its Android based patent licenses by 2017. That buys plenty of R&D and marketing for Windows Phone in the near future."
Not really. All the BS patents thrown against android are set to expire in the next 3-5 years. MS has nothing new to throw at it since Android has all the prior art to prevent MS from patenting anything new.
20. InspectorGadget80 (unregistered)
M$ is afraid and greedy to competent with android. Yet their one of the richest/larfgest software companies in the world
33. cc3493 (Posts: 158; Member since: 06 Jul 2013)
Afraid? No, i dont think so. Greedy, maybe. But then again all big companies end up being greedy - its human nature. Microsoft has more power and funds than google does or samsung or any android OEM for that matter, they are not afraid.
"MS is afraid and greedy to COMPETE* with android" - well no, they are competing with android. They have an OS called Windows Phone. Maybe youve heard of it....
and its they're not their.
One last thing: I think they should be allowed to be paid for patents. Its the rule of Intellectual Property. It shows who owned what and that they are allowed to receive royalties for their ideas and innovations. I dont see why you would want to hinder something like that. Its not greed, its a right.
21. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
Why thank you, Alan. I've been feeling a little deprived of fresh reasons to want to punch Steve Ballmer in the face. I am now refreshed.
Windows Phone can kiss my shiny, metal ass.
22. ilia1986 (unregistered)
Need I remind you of the atrocity of Windows 8, Sir Sniggly? Hell, even OSX is a more reasonable OS.
25. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
No need to remind me of that, Ilia. However, in terms of atrocities, that's old news. It garners a casual flip off at best. This, however, is a new atrocity. Ballmer must BURRRRRRNNNNNN.
27. ilia1986 (unregistered)
Yes, but there is a bright side to this:
"For Microsoft, the licensing fees are like an annuity that gives the company the luxury of time as it continues to fine tune Windows Phone to make it a more competitive platform."
As long as MS is sitting on its laurels, WP will continue to suck and remain outdated. Besides, Google with their new patent portfolio from Moto could reduce MS fees to nothing in the future.
45. elitewolverine (Posts: 3809; Member since: 28 Oct 2013)
because google/droid has no patents, and they never sue, and they would never sue over IP....lulz
Google is just as greedy, hell the funny part is, the search technology they use for ads etc, not even their property.
46. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
Aww, we have a Windows Phone fanboy who has no idea what he's talking about. How cute.
Really man, I think you should give it a rest.
31. rabidhunter (Posts: 90; Member since: 05 Jul 2013)
So, then, wouldn't MS' part in Rockstar be working against their favor? Odd conflict going on there...
38. bigmel314 (Posts: 4; Member since: 11 Jan 2009)
As smart as this is from the fiscal aspect it is equally disheartening that the they havent pounded unthinkable funds into more apps. This is the single thing holding WP back from really being a big player albeit they have made great strides in market share. I would have expected more.
44. elitewolverine (Posts: 3809; Member since: 28 Oct 2013)
I think a lot of companies are waiting for the wp store and win8 store to be as one. They already made that move.
What surprises me, is that C, C++ are the widest known programming languages in the world, WP supports that. Yet developers act like it is to hard to code for. C and c++ are also arguably the fastest languages. Guess everyone needs an excuse to not do something.
49. Sniggly (Posts: 7296; Member since: 05 Dec 2009)
Actually, the relative lack of customers seems to be the bigger problem, Elite. Right now Nokia is the only reason Windows Phone sells at all; the other manufacturers have virtually given up on the platform.
52. elitewolverine (Posts: 3809; Member since: 28 Oct 2013)
When droid had zero users was that the same?
39. papss (unregistered)
Glad to see them be smarter than the rest of the os companies out there. I think wp8 looks miles better than my space and ios. Now just get some depth and we are good.