"Those Samsung officials are given greater independence to proceed with their tasks. Apple prefers to use Samsung's chip experts because they are very diligent, mission-oriented and are prepared to acquire new knowledge," said another official.
Apple aggressively poaching Samsung experts in image, signal, and battery technology
"Those Samsung officials are given greater independence to proceed with their tasks. Apple prefers to use Samsung's chip experts because they are very diligent, mission-oriented and are prepared to acquire new knowledge," said another official.
12. Kumar123 (Posts: 743; Member since: 15 Jan 2015)
Plus the prestige that come with when you work for apple is hard to pass by ( I think), Apple is the most valuable brand and richest electrical company out there. So it's no wonder experts will leave samsung for apple.
34. tedkord (Posts: 11629; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Apple had to go after the best, being as they were getting out innovated so badly.
2. Denco (Posts: 118; Member since: 25 Mar 2014)
How many businesses will Apple raid and destroy before its poaching hunger is satiated?
And to think the Cupertino shylock will even steal talents from its much-derided 'crap' rival?
17. Finalflash (Posts: 3085; Member since: 23 Jul 2013)
The problem at Apple isn't the lack of talent, it is the bland leadership. Unlike during the Jobs days, the passion for new and exciting things isn't there anymore. Now under Cook it is largely about uniformity and money above all else. They literally just copy everyone else now and primarily focus on milking the 10% market of customers they have had since day 1. It isn't a problem though, seeing has how there are millions of talented people out there. Apple is just stealing the ones that are set in their ways, forcing others to bring in new and probably more innovative talent.
86. Stuntman (Posts: 836; Member since: 01 Aug 2011)
Years ago, Apple and Google had an agreement to not poach each other's staff. The result was that a lawsuit was filed and they are paying a settlement for their actions.
Now Apple is doing the opposite to what got them in trouble in the first place. They are poaching other companies' staff.
3. vuyonc (Posts: 1014; Member since: 24 Feb 2014)
Apple is snatchin up yo kids, yo wives, yo workers, yo production plants, yo money and yo ideas.
14. timukh (Posts: 294; Member since: 04 Feb 2013)
Although I dont use any of the Apple products but still I dont think what they are doing is legally wrong. I mean it is not wrong to hire the best talents, also the employees are getting paid heavily. People switch jobs all the time, nothing wrong with that. Also as much as technology has progressed it makes sense for apple to hire people who already knows this stuff a lot, rather than new comers. This news got publicity because apple was involved.
19. vuyonc (Posts: 1014; Member since: 24 Feb 2014)
I know it's just business and not legally wrong. But by now Apple's actions have been 'underhanded'. Of course, other OEMs probably do the same but it seems Apple's poaching, patent trolling and unreal profit margins have become an art form that no one can match :/
39. Napalm_3nema (Posts: 2183; Member since: 14 Jun 2013)
Ask the folks who got hired if they believe it to be "underhanded." Companies stopped caring about the long-term welfare of employees decades ago, prioritizing the bottom line for wealthy shareholders. That means it is up to professionals to get the dollars while they can and take care of themselves and their families. The days of people working 40-50 years with the same company are gone.
58. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
Ask the people who benefitted from any venture, anywhere from morally or ethically questionable to outright illegal, if they believe it to be underhanded. Most just don't care as long as the outcome benefits them or they don't get caught doing it.
The difference here is the professionals aren't going after those higher profits, Apple is coming after them. Any of these companies that do this could care less about giving these professionals a better life, they want to reap the benefits for themselves and their shareholders, aka the bottom line.
61. tedkord (Posts: 11629; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Its not illegal, just hypocritical from a company that engaged in no poach collusion and threatened other companies that tried to hire away from them.
4. magnanimus (Posts: 541; Member since: 29 Mar 2013)
Apple has little to no shame left. First they steal ideas from other companies. Now they plan to steal engineers, damn that's low. And the sad reality is they have enough money to make this happen.
6. RoboticEngi (Posts: 709; Member since: 03 Dec 2014)
Well in the end we are all gonna be force fed with icrap gadgets, coz all else are gone.....
8. Ashoaib (Posts: 3229; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
and the sad thing is, people love it when apple play dirty
13. tech-lover (Posts: 108; Member since: 20 Feb 2015)
And the sad thing is apple die heart fans are thinking it's an innovative company and proud of that..poor ifans and thief company. But be sure every upside has it's own downside it's nature rule.
27. magnanimus (Posts: 541; Member since: 29 Mar 2013)
And the sad thing is that Apple fans defend stuff like this when in hindsight, it doesn't benefit them one bit. They are okay with handing in tonnes of cash to their Apple overlords.
5. RoboticEngi (Posts: 709; Member since: 03 Dec 2014)
Sooo samsung actually have more than copycats? Or what apple? Didnt think they would steal persons who only can copy.........
46. Iodine (Posts: 1330; Member since: 19 Jun 2014)
Samsung's managment ordered those people copy Apple. They can make a much bigger impct at Apple.
62. tedkord (Posts: 11629; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Nobody ordered anyone to copy, and in fact nobody copied. Stop the BS.
7. Biernot (unregistered)
i dont care about copycats.. i want to buy a great phone. Thats all.
28. magnanimus (Posts: 541; Member since: 29 Mar 2013)
....that costs a fortune and doesn't innovate any longer due to weak competition. Has everyone forgotten the Microsoft monopoly. History is about to repeat itself people.
9. frydaexiii (Posts: 1443; Member since: 01 Dec 2011)
lol, so Mr "Original" is trying to hire "copycats" to work for them?
10. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
Wow, I've been saying this for years - with all the money Apple has - it's about time it pulls together a world team of experts... curious what all this means for next product from Apple...
The future is intriguing...
18. Finalflash (Posts: 3085; Member since: 23 Jul 2013)
No need to be curious, just take a look at other companies' products from 2013-2014.
21. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
Are they finally going to introduce a 64bit architecture or an ecosystem that involves more than just changing fonts or icons on your phone? Dude there are things that a smartphone should do outside itself long ago. But your just happy that android phones finally have enough ram and cores on board so it won't lag?
All I'm saying that if this was done by any other company it would be a desperate move - but in this case it's a POWER move - the ability that a company aquires because it build good products not just bigger versions of such a product.
I would rather see good talents used in collaboration with other good talents instead of waisted on companies who can't even pay them enough to keep them on board.
41. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
You don't see anything hypocritical in your second paragraph. If one company does it it's desperate, but if another does it it's a power move. And your reasoning for that is because they don't simply build bigger versions of the same product? What was the iPhone 6 and 6+? Were they not just bigger versions of the 5s?
If they were in such a position of power, they wouldn't need to poach talent from other companies, let alone their biggest competitor. That says more that they like what Samsung has done and want to incorporate it into their own products, otherwise they could get talent from someone who's from the field in general, not their just from their competition.
64. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
Apple's revenue and free cash and position as the BIGGEST company in the WORLD in mobile tech vs. others makes this a POWER move. Apple builds products that sells well, and breaks records, without much worry about competition. Samsung's position or any other mobile manufacturer is picking up crumbs - if Samsung or others were looking for talent it would be as an defensive strategy to keep their head above competition. Apple is doing this as an offensive move and they are powerful enough to do it.
I can see why you'd get confused by my post. I do not disagree that this may be crossing ethical lines - but it's a business - you guys are treating it like it's personal... Every company does this and every company tries to be Apple (in a sense of Big, Successful, Profitable).
Where were your ethics when Samsung and others didnt just bashed Apple products in commercials but Apple customers as well? Where were your ethics when Samsung own people could not recognize the difference between a Samsung device and an Apple device? This is called going "Thermonuclear". Samsung, nor any other company in the world are NOT angels - they're just not interesting enough to make the headlines... Apple news regardless of Positive or Negative sells more than just iDevices, it sells newspapers and PA's add spaces.
You guys still dont grasp the extreme enormity of the matter. You're still hoping Android ads an ability to control your app permissions or finally push past the 64bit wall. But hey, you got swappable batteries and um... "choice"...
67. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
So bashing another company or their customers ethically wrong? How is it any different than all the jabs Apple takes at their competition during any event they have?
I don't take this personally, and I have said that I think poaching by any company means that obviously something is missing, otherwise what's the need to do it?
73. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
"the need to do it" is to GROW... maybe they dont have ENOUGH of their own Battery experts? Did you think about that?
85. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
What Apple does is R&D, not assembly. Throwing more people at the problem isn't a solution. A fresh pair of eyes can be. Which is what I've said in almost every post. If you have the same people working on a problem, it makes sense to have someone who doesn't think like they do have a crack at the problem. You act like for whatever reason they are wanting more employees has nothing to do with them maybe not being able to figure out the solution. It is possible that maybe someone else can bring something new to the table, not just that they don't have the body count to tackle the issue. One person can put a whole new perspective on things. Nine times out of ten, more people thinking the same way gets you the same thing in the end. If they're bringing in outside talent it doesn't negate what they've done so far, but you're taking it personal like I'm saying that it was luck that got them this far, when that's not what I'm saying at all.
22. willard12 (Posts: 1677; Member since: 04 Jul 2012)
So, you're saying that when Apple needs experts they turn to people who have been making Samsung products. Ok.
24. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
It's not that Apple doesn't have experts of their own. But why not bring in more - two heads are better then one, right? It looks like at the moment Apple is collecting talent from EVERYWHERE, not just Samsung.
42. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
If you're referring to the story a few days ago about them poaching employees from a company that deals in automotive batteries, then why are they also looking for Samsung employees with knowledge of mobile batteries? I think that has more to do with their car project that broke a few days earlier.
If their talent was as good as many say they are, they should find a way to overcome their problems themselves, not lure talent from companies who already have. Obviously it will improve their products to do so, but it does signal that they don't have confidence in their current employees to rectify the issue.
47. Iodine (Posts: 1330; Member since: 19 Jun 2014)
Apple's engineers are the best in the industry. Apple mantra is "better" so they always try to improve. Their hunger to improve is limitless - more talent - faster development - better products.
But your logic is absolutelly broken. You try to paint this as something bad, only because it's Apple (iHater laws 1: whatever Apple does is bad). You are actually saying that the more confidence Apple would have in their employees the less employees should they employ ? Until nobody would be working for them huh ?
57. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
So if what you say is true, then why go after Samsung's employees specifically. If Apple truly has the best engineers in the industry, they would have no need of outside talent from their competitors.
I don't think the only reason this is bad is because Apple is doing it. Whenever any company does this it shows that they've reached an impasse and can't get to where they want to be. Otherwise they wouldn't need outside resources. Why else were companies hiring BlackBerry engineers to bolster their enterprise offerings? This has nothing to do with Apple, any company that does this has to have a reason to do so. It usually has to do with the fact that they like what they've done in their current job, and they want to benefit from their knowledge.
I don't know how you got to that last assumption. It's not about numbers, but about who they currently have working for them. If there wasn't a problem with their current group, why would they need to hire from other companies? And specifically for the areas discussed in the article. It means they either aren't completely happy with what their employees have done in those areas, or they want to do something new and feel what Samsung's engineers have done so far could be beneficial to them in the future.
65. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
Apple did not got Samsung's employees specifically - they been recruiting everyone - people and companies. It's called a collective consortium I think. Apple has the power to do this - so Murphy's Law...
Your point that because Apple is hiring a few Samsung employees equals Apple has no talent of their own is immature. Do you really believe that? really? I dont know what's Apple's motive behind all this - and YOU DONT EITHER - you, PA, and I can only speculate. It could be to hinder Samsung's R&D (unethical), it could also be that Samsung has recruited someone Apple had their eyes on as well, or it could be that Samsung actually has a better Battery "guy" vs their own - either way - "sorry Samsung, you've been outbid". When you grow up and try to run a business hopefully you'll be on the offensive position vs a defensive one...
70. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
When did I say they had no talent their to begin with? Show me where I said it. What I did say, and have said repeatedly, is that if they truly do have the best talent there is as many of you are saying, then why would they have need of outside talent? Any company isn't going to spend money unless it benefits them in some way. So that means that something is missing from their current talent pool. Sure, more minds are better, but they are seeking to get talent from companies that they have ridiculed in the past. So either they were simply posturing then, or they're wasting money now.
And you just pointed out in your speculations that if they aren't simply doing this to hinder Samsung's efforts, then they most likely see something of value in Samsung's employees, which would mean that it's something that they don't currently have, which is what I've already said.
How am I being immature by stating what you yourself just stated? You make it out like I'm saying there is no talent at Apple, when that wasn't the case. All I said was that for whatever reason, they are apparently missing something otherwise they wouldn't be spending money to hire away a competitor's talent.
79. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
When did you say they had no talent of their own? Here: "If Apple truly has the best engineers in the industry, they would have no need of outside talent from their competitors."
Let me break down your own words:
if apple has the best engineers they dont need outside talent. Basically means: if Apple is hiring outside talent, that means they dont have any of their own... That's the way it sounds bro, dont even try to change it... there are many posts with that meaning all over these comments - and you know it...
"but they are seeking to get talent from companies that they have ridiculed in the past" EXACTLY... look at it this way.. Apple sees Samsung is incapable of created great products with talents that they have working for them, so, If Samsung cannot create something worthy with poeple they have, maybe they'd be better off working for a company that can provide these experts the ability with either bigger pay, more funds for R&D, or current assets such as other companies that Apple owns...
And your other point, YES exactly, Apple sees value in Samsungs employees just like they see value in THEIR OWN employees - thats why their own employees STILL WORK FOR APPLE and APPLE WANTS MORE!!!
" they are apparently missing something otherwise they wouldn't be spending money to hire away a competitor's talent" Kinda, They're missing MORE EMPLOYEES of such CALIBER because SAMSUNG has hired some of them and APPLE NEEDS THEM too - it's not a playground - its real world - this is how it works!!!
I stated bunch of reasons why Apple may have been doing this, only one of them is unethical in some sense... the rest, or more likely is because Apple needs MORE PEOPLE with TALENT and KNOW HOW in this field. Hiring a few employees from other companies will most likely not hinder Samsung...
Who knows, maybe these SAME EMPLOYEES came to APPLE asking for a job because Samsung Cannot afford to pay since they're loosing their mobile revenue by heaps and bounds lately. Maybe these same employees are worried for their future and want to be with a more successful company. WE DONT KNOW!!! But the first (and seemingly ONLY) conclusion from all Android folk is that APPLE IS BEING UNETHICAL and no other reason... THINK ABOUT IT, BRO...
P.S. Thanks for clearing up your position - it really did sound like you meant that Apple has no Talent...
81. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
Wow. So apparently any criticism at all of Apple gets me a way of anger huh?
First, don't even try to change it? Kinda hard to do that since after 4 minutes the comments are locked.
Second, you take offense that I said "if they truly had the best engineers they wouldn't have need of any outside talent."? You're calling everyone else grade schoolers and you go off like this about any criticism of Apple.
You're taking this like it's all or nothing, either they're the best, or they're the worst. Sorry to tell you, but life isn't absolutes, there's plenty of gray area that most of the world lives in. Your contention that it's not that they are missing anything, they just need more engineers sounds ridiculous. So they have 100 battery experts, but they really need 110? How does that even make sense? It's not like these guys are assembling the batteries. More manpower isn't necessary, but maybe there's something that these companies have done that maybe, just maybe Apple's engineers haven't been able to accomplish so they want to try and get the minds behind it. I mean you act like I disrespected your mother by bringing up the possibility that maybe Apple's engineers aren't the greatest at everything.
And below here you say we're acting like we're in grade school? Take a look at what you wrote once, it's sounds like a child throwing a tantrum. This is a company that makes electronic devices, plain and simple. When it's all said and done, if the whole mobile industry went away, we'd survive, so there's no need to come to blows over this.
77. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
Iodine, thanks so much for trying to explain this.. they're acting like they're still in gradeschool, the logic that Apple is trying to hurt everyone's feelings is armature... Apple is just doing business, like Samsung does and everyone else - they're just so much bigger when it comes to how much attention is on them that no one has any idea or care what Samsung or others do...
53. TechieXP1969 (limited) (Posts: 10115; Member since: 25 Sep 2013)
They don't have experts of their own. They've all been hired from other companies. Haven't you been reading?
Here you go again, defending Apple. Apple is going to make everyone ate them.
I thought Apple would become a better company after Steve Jobs died. But Tim Cook is more of a douche in some ways.
56. Slammer (Posts: 1515; Member since: 03 Jun 2010)
Historically, Apple's most innovative moments have been under Steve Jobs' direction. Steve had the vision and motivation to push his designs to consumer eyes and ears. Products that the world has never seen on a wide scale meter. Tim lacks vision and charisma but, he is better at the financial aspects that have kept Apple moving. I wouldn't call him an ass, but, I do believe ideas at Apple have run out and fear its ingenuity is in question. They have plenty of bank to remain a force for many years because money equates to power.
Only when its small marketshare realize the deficit in visionary ability, will Apple lose its appeal.
66. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
"They don't have experts of their own. They've all been hired from other companies. Haven't you been reading?"
Um... I think all companies hired their experts from other companies (smaller companies) or bought companies whole. You dont become Samsung or Apple by hiring people off the street... Except if you're Apple when Steve and Woz were in college, lol...
And for crying out loud... I'm not defending.. I'm just telling you how real world works... Our fanboyism is just creating these "feelings" that make it seem personal when it's NOT... Try to see that..
71. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
Many of these companies hire people out of school, they have people keeping an eye out for talent before they've ever worked in the private sector.
74. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
And I bet Apple has a large number of "out-of-school" hires as well, whats your point?
82. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
So basically they should just buy up everyone and everything in the mobile industry because they're so great and they will make life so much better for society. OK then.
You talk about how things work in capitalism, but this kind of thing doesn't normally happen in a capitalistic system. Usually there is a balance, something to keep everyone in check otherwise there's a monopoly and then prices go unchecked. When was the last time you heard of an industry where a company that only sold a portion of the total amount of products reaped almost all of the profits? If you can point me to an instance of that I'd love to see it. Even though they don't have the numbers, Apple has a defacto monopoly, and at some point it will be an actual monopoly. Which isn't good for the consumer, the industry or the economy for one company to have that much profit and power.
11. TheGunnyPT (Posts: 252; Member since: 12 Feb 2015)
This has been going thorough the industry for quite some time.
And it doesn't happens on just this one... It's a win situation to some employees... and a lose for small companies who just started.. those are the ones that pay the price.
20. frydaexiii (Posts: 1443; Member since: 01 Dec 2011)
I wouldn't mind if it were any other company...Sony, LG, Lenovo, etc. , if any of them did it, I wouldn't mind, it just means I might look forward to their next flagship device.
But any gain for Apple is a loss for the rest of the Tech world. Just like how when Apple bought Authentec, there hasn't been a single laptop released with a fingerprint scanner since then, and all old laptops with fingerprint scanners have said scanners rendered useless because of the lack of updated drivers. Apple keeps everything for themselves in their own little ecosystem it kinda ruins it for anyone who doesn't want their crappy products...
23. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
You really think that other companies wouldn't buy talent if they had the money? It's a capitalist world, if Apple wasn't on top and someone else was like Samsung you don't think they wouldn't do the same? I'm just glad that one company is moving society forward instead of buncha companies that only make bigger versions of a precious product. Don't you want someone to finally introduce another new product that changes the world - like the original iPhone did?
29. magnanimus (Posts: 541; Member since: 29 Mar 2013)
The thing is if Samsung was the one on top doing this, then we'd hate them too. Its s**tty business practice and doesn't bring much benefit to the consumer.
It didn't take Apple to poach another successful companies engineers to create the original iPhone soo why do that now. If they take all the smart brains into their own ecosystem, then only Apple would create really good devices and that's the dawn of the smartphone monopoly, my friend (similar to the PC monopoly Microsoft used to enjoy).
Each company should try to work with the set of engineers they have or hire new ones, not poach. This will lead to better competition and in turn further innovation. Don't just throw money everywhere like a spoilt brat and expect stuff to happen.
31. frydaexiii (Posts: 1443; Member since: 01 Dec 2011)
It didn't change the world until other companies produced Android phones, in which Apple tried to halt their progress with their frivolous lawsuits. It would not be known as a Smartphone era if there were only iPhones and dumbphones, it takes all other companies to produce smartphones to start a new era. Nothing Apple does changes the world...on it's own, it needs other companies to be on board as well, which Apple really doesn't like since they're trying to create a monopoly. Which brings us back to, it suck for people who refuse to use their garbage and want other options out there but Apple is taking it all away.
33. dmakun (Posts: 320; Member since: 06 Jun 2011)
I know you're usually pro apple but I'm just curious to understand what you mean by this "I'm just glad that one company is moving society forward instead of buncha companies that only make bigger versions of a precious product". Can you please elaborate? Since the iPhone and perhaps the iPad what product has Apple introduced that revolutionised the tech industry?
49. Iodine (Posts: 1330; Member since: 19 Jun 2014)
Apple watch is going to create an industry, the new MacPro has been a stunner, iOS 7 has influenced the design phillosophy of modern UI's, MacBook Pro with Retina display has been a pro notebook renaissance... Many things have been done and many lie ahead for example the mythical Next gen. Mac Book Air.
59. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
The Apple watch won't create an industry, but it will help it grow.
63. tedkord (Posts: 11629; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
IOS7,which copied the design philosophy of WP, influenced UIs? Really?
68. AlikMalix (Posts: 5836; Member since: 16 Jul 2014)
I meant "previous" product. But my point was: Apple created a proper touch screen device - showed how it should work and respond, then it did the same thing with App Store, then again with Voice Assistant, then again with Mobile Pay - it doesnt catch on until Apple Does it RIGHT! Other companies just make "bigger versions" with other options and just wait for what's next. Sometimes they build devices just on Apple RUMOR alone - they rush it like the current smartwatches: how many variations does it take to get it right? so far NO-GO! Then Apple releases a NON-RUSHED product and now everyone knows how to do it right... Look at Apple Pay - they kept it under wraps only until BANKS, Merchants, and Creditors are on board - sign everyone up and then release to public (in contrast Google Wallet just slaps NFC on a device and hope it catches on - and it didn't - it even got BLOCKED)...
So that's what I mean when I say Apple moves it FORWARD others just BUILD ON IT.... You really think that adding widgets, changing fonts, and adding Ram consistently the way to push society forward? it takes a different approach completely - this is why most of you hate Apple products - you dont like to do things differently - that's why you're stuck with swappapble batteries (same as dumbphones), external SD storage (same as dumbphones), old mini USB chargers (same as dumbphones), Flash support instead of HTML 5 push (same as dumbphones), Android tried pushing the physical keyboard even after 3rd iPhone generation (remember slide-out keyboard phones) until they finally gave up... You guys see something different and say "Nah, I like it the old way", I see buncha Android users who like their old comfortable chair, ooh but it got a massager right? You like your comfortable chair - so be it, but I like devices that push forward, and if it takes a collective from other parts of the manufacturing world - more power to them....
43. VZWuser76 (Posts: 4185; Member since: 04 Mar 2010)
Again, why do you bring up companies making bigger versions of a "precious" product? That's what the iPhone 6 and 6+ was, bigger versions of the 5s. You make it sound like when Apple did it, it was revolutionary. Besides a facelift of the casing and a bump in resolution (necessitated by increasing the size of the screen), what did they really change over the 5s?