Dan Hesse says that the Apple iPhone is the number one reason why customers leave Sprint
Sprint CEO and television star Dan Hesse spoke about Sprint's financial future at a Goldman Sachs conference. Discussing his estimates for the carrier's future earnings, Hesse didn't exactly mention the iPhone by name, but said, "If we get it--if--we may have to adjust our guidance for that." Sprint's current guidance to analysts for future earnings does not include the iPhone which the CEO referred to as a "certain rumored device."
Hesse earlier told those attending the conference that he would not speak about whether or not Sprint was getting the Apple iPhone, but he did say that the device is the number one reason why customers leave Sprint. Which makes it all the more important that the carrier get a variant of the model itself to offer its customers so that they will stay at the nation's third largest carrier.
And to differentiate itself from Verizon and AT&T, Hesse and his staff have been working hard to keep the carrier's unlimited plan, even if it starts offering a data hog like Apple's phone. The staff conducts regular meetings under the title "Thinking Unlimited". Hesse added that Sprint believes offering unlimited service is profitable. "If it becomes unprofitable," said the CEO, "We won't offer it anymore."
1. SStevens2 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:37 12 8
How about the fact that you are paying an extra $10 per month for premium data on a 4G phone when you don't live in a city with 4G coverage? Or the fact that service really sucks?
8. BrendanFromSprint (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:07 6 1
Actually, it isn't a 4G charge, it's a charge that is being placed on all smart phones. A person can get the "everything date 450" plan for the $69.99/month with a phone that has limited data functionality, but technically isn't a smart phone (like the LG Rumor Touch) But when you put on an actual smart phone, it jumps by that $10 because of the obvious jump in data usage by those phones. Hope that clarifies it for you. (Note:I work for Sprint)
10. SStevens2 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:10 3 1
I had a Samsung Epic 4G and they FIRST called it a 4G data chage. When they have millions of people that don't live in or anywhere near a 4G coverage location, they changed it to a smart phone data charge. Oh my 3G data was downloading at 100-300kb per sec compared to my current Tmobile 4G download speed of 7-8 megs per sec.
22. 87168 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:21 1 1
"Oh my 3G data was downloading at 100-300kb per sec compared to my current Tmobile 4G download speed of 7-8 megs per sec."
^^^ So youre comparing 3G speeds to 4G speeds? Ok, that makes sense.
28. _VipeR_ posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:26 3 1
I'm so glad that you said this. I am really tired of hearing people call it a 4g charge. It is especially irritating that when it was first introduced on the Evo and Epic that they just happened to be the only 4g phones we had at the time so millions of Store Reps would just call it a charge for 4g. People need to understand that if they want to continue to have truly unlimited data, it is going to require for Sprint to "overhaul" it's network to be able to provide that experience. That is what the charge is for! It is so that Sprint has the money to update/upgrade/and maintain a network that can handle the amount of Data that it's customers are using.
36. @viper (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 03:34 1 0
4g data charge or not.... Here's a wetnap, wipe of your sandy v@&!n@ and call it what ever you want. When you guys get the iPhone, you're going to eventually discontinue the unlimited plan. Enjoy it while you can. Once you get the iPhone, sprint will be just like the other companies, and you'll suck apple off in the champagne room. Go ahead and change your policy to a 14 day return policy, up the return fees, activation charges, and everything else you can.
I'm ready for my thumbs down Mr. DeMille
55. corporateJP posted on 22 Sep 2011, 12:40 2 0
You guys sure they aren't using that money to fund NASCAR, because by the look of it where I'm at, Sprint has terrible coverage.
56. Phoneguy007 posted on 22 Sep 2011, 13:28 1 1
and there customer service still sucks!!!!!!
67. MrCeleb1 (unregistered) posted on 24 Sep 2011, 10:26 0 0
I see you are not aware, but ALL Smartphones on the Sprint network require a $10 Premium Data Add on. You should be thankful you are able to have unlimited data unlike any other carrier! How would you like to pay $30 extra for data that's not even unlimited?
2. nwright94 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:37 3 0
Or it could be the less than ideal coverage? Unless its changed since i had it in 2008, but i couldn't get signal anywhere, not even my own house.
3. biophone posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:39 9 0
People like the iphone. Would help them if they get it. They do have a good lineup though no doubt.
9. SStevens2 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:07 2 3
an iPhone doesn't change anything. So now you have an iPhone with no 4G data or coverage in your house. You would be better off buying an iPod touch.
19. wumberpeb posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:08 5 1
You're a complete idiot...@sstevens
You were charged an extra $10 a month because you had a 4G phone. Nowadays everyone with a smartphone gets charged the $10 fee when they upgrade or start new service. Never once was it called a 4G charge by anyone at Sprint.
Despite the fact that you're being charged the fee, Sprint still remains a better deal than anyone. T-mobile's 79.99 plan is nice too, but while you're given unlimited talk, you're choked on data after 2 gigs. A lot I of good that 7-8 mbits will do after a couple of weeks. I personally prefer the extra data over talk minutes, and many others would agree...
So stop your crying and whining about being charged extra, like you're really getting ripped off. Besides, if you hated your "4G" charge so much, what would happen if you traveled to a 4g city and weren't forced to pay the premium data fee? You'd piss and moan about having a fancy phone that's stuck on 3G and won't connect to Wimax. Grow a pair
For the record, an iPhone changes quite a bit for sprint. Nextel is losing all of the subscribers, not the sprint side of things. Add the most popular phone in the country and you're bound to come out of the red
25. dj (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:08 0 0
tell em why you mad! lol
26. wimaxisdead (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:09 1 2
were you molested by your stepfather as a child? angry at the world
52. wumberpeb posted on 22 Sep 2011, 11:36 2 1
Molested? Hey, good one! You're clearly the knowledgeable one in the group!
37. @wumber (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 03:36 1 2
WiMax is a f**kING JOKE. I get better coverage at a Starbucks. In fact I can bet my balls that there is more Starbucks coverage worldwide than WiMax.
53. wumberpeb posted on 22 Sep 2011, 11:39 2 0
Nice comparison smartass...let's compare a company with shops all over the planet with "WIFI coverage" with a domestic carrier and their 4G service. Hell, if you're betting your balls, why not compare it to LTE coverage from Verizon?! I think you're still right
Don't know about you, but I value my balls more than that
51. Mista XIII (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 10:55 0 0
IT WAS CALLED a PREMIUM DATA CHARGE!
and I have had at least 2 DOZEN sprint customer service reps tell me that it was because my Phone (Samsung Epic) had 4g capabilities.
You know good and hell well it was NOT a smartphone data charge until LATER when people started complaining about being charged for WIMAX services that they were not receiving. Sprint had several smartphones BEFORE the release of the epic and evo and THOSE phones were NOT charged the extra 10 dollars.
They simply got caught up in there improper tactic and had to change the wording because you cant charge people for something you dont deliver.
Simple as that
54. wumberpeb posted on 22 Sep 2011, 11:50 2 0
And of all these supposed customer service reps, which also not sure what you're doing to your poor Epic that would lead you to call so many damn times, they should've never called it a 4G charge. They broke it down so the idiots of the world can understand why they're being charged, and that's how they worded it for you. Simply because it was only the 4G phones being issued the fee, but it was still called the same thing it is today, a premium data fee.
Now that they're charging everything from the Transform to the Evo3D with the fee, its still called a premium data fee. There's no denying that they needed to charge everyone not because it was "unfair" to those with 4G phones, but because even 3G models use tons of data, in the right hands. I guarantee they added it for everyone as another way to get cash to keep data for EVERYONE'S PHONE unlimited. Exactly what they're doing now, saving cash in every area by upping fees for upgrading, ETF fees and killing the Premier program (just to name a few), they can so that everyone is still unlimited. That's Sprint's claim to fame, so stop with the tin-foil hats and conspiracy theories about everyone complaining about their high-end phones getting charged the fee when others didn't.
You get an iPhone on another carrier and there's additional limitations that they bring, and people manage to live with that. Check out what the differences with phone insurance claims are between Win7\Android models and an iPhone. Someone crying about that?
Goodness. You really expect them to charge some and not all 4G users based on where you live? Not Sprint's problem, that's yours
62. ZayZay posted on 22 Sep 2011, 16:49 0 0
@wumberpeb I agree with everything you have stated up above.
Ok people here it is so your tiny impatient brains can understand.
1. When the HTC EVO lauched there was a $10 charge to have the phone because it had the capability of 4G and a Faster 3G experience, also to keep it unlimited. How is the 3G faster than any phone you say? I had taken several 3G only phones and compared them to the Evo's 3G, the Evo zipped to load a big page in 5 seconds while all other phones took 25 to 30 seconds. So you are paying for a faster experience on a phone.
2. On January 30th 2011 Sprint mandated the $10 charge to all smartphones (except the replenish) because they saw all the smartphones were using at least 3x's the data as a non-smartphone. Who wouldn't? They need to make the money somehow.
3. It clearly states in terms and conditions that 4G coverage varies and that it's your responsibilty to check coverage before purchasing. Yes there is not that much 4G but that's your own fault for signing up without reading something first. It's 101 basics READ BEFORE YOU SIGN
Stop pissing and moaning about being hosed because you yourself are the...let's use the word "retarded" ones for signing up without checking things out first.
If the coverage is not adequate to your needs than I am sorry it didnt work out and have a great day.
21. Lucas777 posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:15 1 0
tell that to the millions of people on verizon and att's iphone.. ya didnt think so…
5. bolaG posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:48 1 1
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Soon Sprint will also leave the unlimited world. It may not be today it may not be tomorrow but eventually they'll have to...
57. Phoneguy007 posted on 22 Sep 2011, 13:30 0 0
they aready have...they just said the will capp there data on some plans
Sprint Confirms 5GB Data Cap for Hotspot Add-On
Today, 9:42 AM by Eric M. Zeman
Sprint today confirmed to Phone Scoop via email that it is making a change to its Mobile Hotspot add-on plan. Starting October 2, the $29.99 Mobile Hotspot feature will have a 5GB data allowance for 3G or combined 3G/4G usage. Sprint spokesperson Emmy Anderson said, however, that Sprint continues to offer unlimited data for phones in its Everything Data and Simply Everything plans. Mobile Hotspot data consumption is calculated independent of a customer’s phone data consumption.
6. phoneguru173 posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:53 1 5
Sorry Mr.Hesse....people leave Sprint because your coverage is...well.NON-EXISTANT!
18. Debbie (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:01 1 3
You are right Mr. Hesse, I will be leaving Sprint since it is pretty much becoming an ATT/Verizon who also have the Iphone. Little by little you are losing the unlimited feature..etc. Now I am thinking I rather pay a little more via another carrier and have coverage in case of a emergency. I have given you 13 yrs of loyal service never missed a payment and now you treat me like a regular Joe. If you lose the unlimited data on smartphones (not talking about HotSpot) which is right now keeping me on your carrier, but I see that feature going away sometime after the release of the Iphone,well it is history for me.
Like I said I rather pay a little more and have coverage then a little less with the same service features and have little to no coverage in rural areas. I guess time will tell if we lose the unlimited data on smartphones.
BTW people can just get a GoPhone with a unlimited plan..etc.for about 50, buy a nice unlocked phone off ebay/craigs and just switch the sim on ATT, that is what I been hearing......could be wrong.
23. 87168 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:32 4 0
haha a regular Joe? i love how customers feel just because they pay their bill that they should get preferential treatment. YOU SHOULD PAY YOUR BILL!!! You're not donating money to any of these carriers. You're paying for a service that they are providing you. You will NOT haev coverage everywhere, that is the nature of the wireless industry. Accept it and move on. I pay my Time Warner bill on time every month...do they give me a free flat-screen? NO! I pay my gas bill on time every month. Does the gas company offer me a free stove or free service in the winter? (I live in Buffalo so that would be great). NO! and I don't expect them to..
I'm so tired of these people acting as if they're doing these carriers a favor by giving them their business. Cell phones are a necessity nowadays. If you leave your current carrier because they didnt give you what you wanted, you'll just end up somewhere else. It's just a cycle.
News flash: all of these carriers have the skeletal structure when it comes to policies and procedures. It will most likely be the same at your next carrier. Good Luck.
24. Debbie (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:55 0 2
Well 817..ask my husband what service do most of his oilfield friends have including himself and he will say ATT. Why cause they have service in rural areas "period" and Sprint does not.
Also we just left ATT internet, why you ask well we were paying about 40 for internet and slower speeds when RR has a 29.99 package for 20megs speed, so do the math why would any one pay more for less. That my friend is what Sprint is turning into with their coverage in rural area and becoming just like the other carriers with their features.
If you have money to blow by all means keep throwing it into the fire.
31. Jim Morgan (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:34 0 1
WOW 87168, you are getting robbed. Being loyal from a cust means a lot for company. I was also loyal myself for years with Sprint and they took away my Gold status and my $10 discount I would get on my bill with these up coming changes.
Funny thing you mention Time Warner, I have RR Lite 750k 29.99, but since I am a loyal cust they bumped me up to 10megs at the same price of RR Lite.
So stop being silly about loyal cust not meaning nothing to a company, cause it does.
32. 87168 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:45 4 0
Jim It doesnt mean anything, only for you people that call in to whine and moan, so they throw you a bone just so you greedy consumers can shut up and hang up the phone. You expect a service...then pay for it and stop looking for shortcuts and give aways from businesses. You'll be the same people complaining about act fees and restocking fees....You want to know why businesses are starting to charge those fees. Because of consumers like you that are looking for a favor because you PAY YOUR BILL.
Also debbie I dont live in the middle of nowhere. I live in a metropolitan area, so reception isnt an issue here for any carrier. Sorry.
35. p0rkguy posted on 22 Sep 2011, 01:53 0 0
You may live in a metropolitan area but you clearly don't seem knowledgeable when it comes to business.
Offering perks is one of the main reasons businesses are able to stay on top.
Unless a business is able to capture a new target market, loyalty is the next best thing.
42. Laron (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 08:54 3 0
In the grand scheme of things, being a loyal customer really doesn't mean much to a company. If you look at why a company is started, it's to make money. (If it's not a non-profit organization) Paying our bills on time is what we are supposed to do, and if you don't pay your bill what generally happens; your service that you're paying for gets disconnected. What a lot of people don't understand is that most corporate officers and executives are in it for the money, that's why they make millions and their employees make much less. Not that, that's a bad thing because they are the ones in charge running the show, but the fact that companies give a little here and there to their "loyal customers" is just an incentive or maybe even a false sense of hope marketing strategy to make their customers seem "special." Companies created to make money, our world revolves around it. I pay my bills on time not to get rewards, but to continue to get service. I get rewards and letters for being loyal, but I don't expect anything. I'm paying them and their providing me the service in which I signed up for.
44. Laron (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 09:00 0 0
Excuse the grammar erros. *errors
The point is what's important
50. bigdog805 posted on 22 Sep 2011, 10:44 0 0
I just dont understand why people think paying their bills on time requires rewards. When you become an adult bills are a responsibility. The rewards of paying your bills on time is building a responsible and respectful credit score. Which will give you rewards like lower interest rates on loans, and no deposits. People that are reaching out for rewards for doing what they are suppose to do probably still ask for dessert because they cleaned their room.
66. Gorkon (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 19:30 0 0
Most Obama voters don't think they have to pay their bills, so you're preaching to the choir.
7. theBankRobber (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 20:58 0 1
So Sprint will be getting a watered down version of the iPhone? Lol if so it will still sell. I just think all of the changing going on with Sprint will be a set back to the loyal customer and would make them think about leaving even sooner.
12. remixfa posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:11 4 0
how is the 4s watered down? compared to the 4 its an improvement. bigger camera and dual core. while not mind blowing, its better than offering a 1.3 year old iphone4.
11. Djinn 360 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:10 0 0
I would say really depends on where you live. Sprint has a good coverage in my Area and it has improve their device selection. for me is a good carrier I was on ATT and it was so expensive due to the data plan. I really hate Verizon, poor service and customer service suckssssss big time.
13. Dave (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:12 1 0
Your not paying to have a 4g phone in a non 4g area, you are paying the extra 10 a month because you are using a smartphone.. and the fact that most people with a smartphone have more data usage then those who don't own a smartphone... having a 4g phone has nothing to do with the 10 premium cost. Has for the coverage...it all depends on the area you live in.. it wouldn't matter what carrier your on.. they all have there issues. I travel a lot.. I have 2 phones.. one business then my own phone.. ones on Sprint. .the other is ATT.. both phones have issues in some cases.. I know people on the other carries .. that have the same issue.. so.. if you look at the plans that are out there.. Sprint by far.. is the better carrier..they don't charge you for everthing.. like the other carries do.. so stop winning.. and if you think it's that bad.. then leave instead of crying about it.
43. Laron (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 08:57 0 0
Sad, but very true.
15. akhi216 posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:33 1 5
WRONG! People leave his crappy company because they charged 10 dollars a month for 4G that they couldn't get then turned around charged 10 dollars a month to everyone who bought a smartphone in a distasteful but successful bid to make it look like their data was "premium" (nothing could be farther from the truth) in courts because they were being sued over it. People leave his crappy company because they're tired on not being able to get a signal in their homes. People leave his company because they're tired of having their calls get dropped. People leave his crappy company because they're tired of not being able to hear what the other person is saying on the other line and tired of not being able to be heard. People leave his crappy company because their tird of 3G and 4G (or should I say scanning?) dropping when they're in the middle of doing something. People leave his crappy compay because they were promised 4G (scanning) and never got it. People leave his crappy company because they have waited patiently for 4G over a year while they just sat there and twiddled their thumbs. People leave his crappy company they're tired of getting better signals when roaming than signals in their network in an area that they have "good" coverage in. People leave company because they cut the programs that offered them the incentive to stay with the company. YOU CAN't offer service and management and expect people to stay with your company!!!
40. vette21man posted on 22 Sep 2011, 07:35 0 0
Your comment would have been prettier as a bulleted list:
- Lots of points
- A little ranty
- Very long
45. darkkjedii posted on 22 Sep 2011, 10:08 0 0
Damn!!! Well put and true. I'm n Vegas,and all I get is scanning for 4g when I turn it on. Went back to att,and I get hspa+ constantly,which happens to be faster that sprints 4g. Sprints 4g is non existent indoors by the way.
46. thenewdanger (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 10:27 0 0
I work for Sprint and I've seen a few things that have prompted me to post.
A) like BrendanfromSprint said, it's NOT a 4g tax. It's f'ing unlimited data. If some of you don't realize the possibility (e.g. rooting an Android device and tethering it to your computer) you're a fool. I can't stand people who whine to me about the $10 add-on.
B) You're right @darkkjedii the 4g is non-extistent indoors. More than likely why they are switching to LTE.
C) Sprint sucks in rural areas. We know it, but if you live in a rural area and don't bother checking to see if you have coverage before you get this shiny new phone, you have no reason to complain. You were the problem, not Sprint. And on that point, most people live in metropolitan areas, not rural areas. Sprint is a business, so where would you get more money? A metropolitan area, or podunk, nowhere?
58. darth8ball posted on 22 Sep 2011, 13:32 0 0
Try jumping for VZW they have Vegas covered with LTE
16. snowgator posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:37 0 0
iPhone will not solve all that is hurting them, but the long term future of Sprint is better with the iPhone than without. Kinda silly to even argue that.
It is also amazing to me that on a lot of threads for Sprint, people say "Sooner or later they are going to have to dump unlimited" like it is a disadvantage that they have unlimited data and we should hold it against them like they do not have it. Really, now- what other carrier is even trying to keep it an option? Even if they do have to drop it in a year or two, that is that much longer than their competition offered it. Besides, what if Sprint decides to charge as much for for 5GB's of data as AT&T and Verizon charge for 2GB's? They are that kind of company. Sprint has a lot of good plans for the future. We need them to be succesful to keep Verizon and AT&T on their toes.
17. 530gemini posted on 21 Sep 2011, 21:52 0 1
Wow, android fanboys know better than Sprint's CEO.
59. darth8ball posted on 22 Sep 2011, 13:37 0 0
WOW what a douche. How about freedom of speech. How about the right to an opinion of your own.....
That's right Jobs and Cook think for you and we should all embrace that sort of thinking.
20. anonomus (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 22:15 0 0
I don't understand the uproar over the $10 premium data charge, Verizon charges $30 and ATT $25 when you own a smartphone and you pay $20 for unlimited text, sprint is 79.99 unlimited data smart phone, Verizon is $89.99 for 2gb and 10 per gb over, ATT is $84.99 with $10 per gb over....
29. Taxman77 (unregistered) posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:31 0 1
The absolute ignorance (and horrible grammar) on this thread astounds me.
30. Dee808 posted on 21 Sep 2011, 23:31 1 0
Everyone talks about leaving Sprit if the unlimited plans goes away. So that would means you are going to someone else and pay more for the same data cap. You should leave Sprint cause you don't get the coverage you want. Or the phone you like. If coverage or phone doesn't count then look at the prices 79. 84. or 89 for 2 gig. People leave sprint cause of the phones. If you didn't have good coverage during the first 15 days you got the phone the WHY did you stay for 2 years. If you want the better coverage for you area and fast data pay the price that's all. Facts of cell phone life. Carriers only give us what we pay for. And the hold us in the grip of there hands.
33. lubba posted on 22 Sep 2011, 00:30 0 0
Verizen did well without the iphone. They did better with it. Mr. Hesse, its you who's wrong. Get the best products, price, service(bars anywhere), and advertise, adevertise! Quit gloting on the iphone. Don't you see Android is number 1#! Stupid!
34. onemorething (unregistered) posted on 22 Sep 2011, 00:59 0 0
If Sprint-Nextel's own quarterly reports are to be believed, the ACTUAL number one reason customers leave is because they ruined Nextel and have announced they are going to begin shutting down iDEN.
According to Sprint's own press releases, by far the largest group of customers leaving are the Nextel/iDEN customers. In Q2-2011 Sprint's CDMA 3G side ADDED 226,000 new postpaid customers and ADDED 1.1 million prepaid CDMA subscribers, while at the same time the Nextel/iDEN side LOST 327,000 postpaid customers and Boost/iDEN LOST 475,000 prepaid subscribers.
So if the CDMA side of Sprint ADDED a total of 1,326,000 customers while iDEN LOST a total of 802,000 customers, I would suggest that Mr. Hesse needs to read his own company's reports before making his completely bogus claim that the greatest loss of Sprint-Nextel customers is due to Sprint not having the iPhone. Hesse is simply blowing smoke to cover up the real problems that are inherent to the company
38. dvancleave posted on 22 Sep 2011, 06:10 0 0
"They ruined Nextel"? Have you ever suffered through using Nextel devices before? I work for a very large international corporation with half its workforce being field engineers. It has been a few years back before Sprint bought them out. But we did use Nextel. And believe me, there was good reason for us dropping them. We tried every device they offered then and had an average lifespan of 6 months per device across the corporation. The signal was very intermittent and patchy. And we probably extended our lifespan too. Just try holding one up next to a radio or CRT display and press the PTT button if you need proof. I think Sprint made a huge mistake in their acquisition of Nextel. The PTT seemed cool for businesses. But it proved to be nothing more than a fad.
I am no Apple fan by any means. But there are plenty of people who are. Just walk by and peep inside an Apple store and look at the masses of people. While I seem to have a resistance to the iPhone allure. I think it is obvious that Sprint would be foolish not to try cashing in on this segment too.
61. Phoneguy007 posted on 22 Sep 2011, 14:31 0 0
I agree 100% he has been doing this for a very long time now.