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With no last second agreement likely, Apple v. Samsung winner will be up to the 9 person jury

Posted: , by Alan F.

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With no last second agreement likely, Apple v. Samsung winner will be up to the 9 person jury
Part of Apple's proposed jury verdict form

Part of Apple's proposed jury verdict form

Apple and Samsung met on Saturday in an attempt to get each side to reduce the number of claims both were presenting to the jury against the other in this epic court battle. With both sides unable or unwilling to work things out, it means that the ultimate decision on who wins the case could end up in the hands of the 9 strangers sitting in the jury box. And that's is the hard thing for the attorneys on both sides to swallow. At this stage, Apple and Samsung know each other well. After all, in one of life's sweetest ironies, Samsung is a major supplier to Apple. And after both sides take swings at each other, fighting dirty and using every trick in the book to win, it will probably come down to the jury to make a decision.

Judge Lucy Koh continued to be "pathologically optimistic" that both sides could reach a settlement and if not, she hoped both sides could agree to reduce its claims. The fewer claims that each side makes, the easier time the jury might have reaching a decision. Speaking of the jury, Judge Koh and her staff will be filing a tentative set of final jury instructions on Sunday which will reflect all of the objections both sides have had to the original set of jury instructions. Last weekend, the judge ordered both sides to meet to reach an agreement on the instructions, a process that fell flat on its face and left Judge Koh "disappointed". This week, the judge wants each side to file by 8am Monday, no more than 16 pages of their top 8 high priority objections to the jury instructions. Any further objections will have to wait for a hearing later on Monday.

One disputed point is which chart the jury will use to keep track of those devices manufactured by Samsung that Apple claims infringed on its patents. Apple says its one page chart is easier to read than the 6 page chart devised by Samsung which includes Android model numbers and other info that might not be pertinent to the jury reaching a decision. Each side also filed a proposed jury verdict form. Remember, this is not a criminal trial so the jury does not have to decide beyond a reasonable doubt if one of the parties is guilty. In this case, Apple will need to have proven by a preponderance of the evidence that Samsung is liable. And the same legal yardstick must be applied to Samsung's cross-claims against Apple.

source: Bloomberg, AppleInsider

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posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:13 11

1. XPERIA-KNIGHT (Posts: 2384; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


"Samsung is a major supplier to Apple."

hahah see thats where samsung has the upper hand because if apple wins this case with the dirty schemes they have be using, Samsung can easily "cut" the string after that contract is over and find someone else to work with....As im sure there are PLENTY other companies that would like to work with sammy........ HTC, SONY. MOTO MAYBE?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 01:38 11

9. Lucas777 (Posts: 2121; Member since: 06 Jan 2011)


why would samsung get rid of a part of their business because its pride has been hurt?

what would that say of samsung as a good business partner? pride over profit?

I mean that is pretty much like me as a storeowner denying business to democrats because I am a republican… (just an example)

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 02:38 2

11. jroc74 (Posts: 4720; Member since: 30 Dec 2010)


Honestly...Samsung should still deal with Apple. They give Apple money if they lose...and get some of it back by supplying parts to them.

Its almost a no lose situation for Samsung....lol.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 07:11 3

28. joey_sfb (Posts: 2514; Member since: 29 Mar 2012)


Samsung has the capacity to manufacture into phones and tablets all the parts that was sold to Apple.

It might come to a point where they decide to choke apple just like the way apple punch them in the eyes.

Apple CEO vs Samsung CEO. They are human after all.

These episodes only show apple partners that they better be on their guard apple will knock your teeth regardless of how important your role may be to their profit margin.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 03:44 2

17. XPERIA-KNIGHT (Posts: 2384; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


Dude would you still wanna do business after someone has been calling you a lier, a copier, and other stuff like that? I dont think so........And I can tell you are an apple lover right off the back because saying samsungs "pride" has been hurt is totally......ummm i dont know the word, but Ill just say WRONG! Samsungs "pride" has not been in this case the entire time...It is APPLES pride that has drug samsung to court in the first place....So im not about to get in a huge discussion over this but just know that if this case goes down the way apple wants it too, then samsung better have the guts to do what is necessary, that is IF they cannot find a common ground and continue in their partner ship......and like I said If this case continues the way apple wants it to be (which is being solely led by the very essence of pride) then Samsung most definitely does not need to work with that kind of influence period...

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 06:38 2

22. Bozzor (Posts: 99; Member since: 02 May 2012)


Samsung's components division maintains very good relations with Apple, and at the end of the day, Apple needs Samsung's scale and quality.

And Samsung needs Apples cash.

At present, China and the US snipe at each other and vie for power influence and control...yet they support each other economically like few other nations on earth. Why? Because they badly need each other. They may not really like it, but that's the way things are.

Same here.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 06:56 5

23. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Who cares if he's an apple lover? Look at all the Samsung/Android lovers who flood PA with negative/anti apple comments all day all articles.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:08 10

32. remixfa (Posts: 13902; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)


you guys are all crazy

if samsung loses, samsung will still be the supplier

they have CONTRACTS. NEITHER side can back out of without paying what would more than likely be a kings ransom.

Also, Apple has no choice. Theyve been looking for alternate suppliers and no one else has the capacity free to make iphones at apple's pace. Samsung could just increase exynos supplies and sell them out (once they fix integrated LTE) and make up much if not all of the business they lose from Apple. Ending the venture would hurt them both, but it would hurt apple more... at least on the short term. A constant shortage of iphones would have a huge effect on them.

But again, business is not personal. Would you pay.. probably hundreds of millions to billions.. to get out of a MULTI BILLION dollar contract simply because your annoyed with the guy your making things for? If you were Apple would you ditch samsung to "punish" them even though it hurts you much more? You want to cut your nose of to spite your face?

Think rationally.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:14 3

36. TROLL (banned) (Posts: 4851; Member since: 13 Apr 2012)


+1 Remixfa, you have a point! But then knowing only
Samsung can supply Apple's demand, no other than them, it would be a nice to see the fruit drop before maturity.....?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:02

46. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Very good post man. I wish more apple/android users had ur understanding.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:37 1

48. Lucas777 (Posts: 2121; Member since: 06 Jan 2011)


if I was in a contract and I was making money absolutely! would you not take a billion dollars from TIm cook because you dont like him? really??

and i am not saying samsungs pride has already been hurt… it WOULD be hurt if they lost to apple..

Samsung is not a stupid company obviously… they would not sacrifice a working relationship over pride

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:53

50. lyndon420 (Posts: 1686; Member since: 11 Jul 2012)


You can only get away with biting the hand that feeds you for so long before the hand up and slaps you in the head. Sammy should honor any existing contracts with apple and then cut all ties with them. I think Sammy can make enough money from the sales of its own products without helping the competition...especially when the competition keeps dragging you into court over bs.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 15:16 1

52. Lucas777 (Posts: 2121; Member since: 06 Jan 2011)


apple will go and find other component companies… they are not completely reliant on samsung…

yes, apple would rather keep their relation going that switching just as samsung would enjoy keeping the revenue stream… it makes no sense for samsung and apple to cease their working relationship-- and anyways they are both fighting each other.. its not all apple attacking samsung

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 16:19

54. lyndon420 (Posts: 1686; Member since: 11 Jul 2012)


How many different OEM's has apple worked with? And out of those, how many have been dragged into court by apple?

Google works with many OEM's as well, and how many of them have been dragged to court by Google.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 16:54 1

57. Lucas777 (Posts: 2121; Member since: 06 Jan 2011)


none of the suing matters though..

this is an unrelated part of business that would be stupid for either company to sever

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 02:41 4

13. tegradragon (Posts: 68; Member since: 23 May 2012)


And no one would like to work with Apple?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 07:00 3

24. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Whoever said that is plain wrong. This is the business world, not the consumer world. Samsung, apple r both smart enough to know they badly need each other... The courtroom battle won't interfere with that in the least bit. These companies r huge for a reason. Smarts!!!

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:55 1

51. lyndon420 (Posts: 1686; Member since: 11 Jul 2012)


I'm pretty sure apple needs Sammy more than Sammy needing apple.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 20:57 2

59. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


You're pretty sure or u don't know for sure.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 04:36 6

19. MeoCao (unregistered)


There should be no compromise, Android must keep on attacking until Apple comes to senses.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 07:01 5

25. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Dude please hush

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:08 1

33. TROLL (banned) (Posts: 4851; Member since: 13 Apr 2012)


Well said! When will that fruit mature?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:44 5

38. remixfa (Posts: 13902; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)


you cant go to senses you never had. :)

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 10:22 1

41. MeoCao (unregistered)


Haha, you can learn some after being beaten badly.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 08:09 2

29. neutralguy (Posts: 1152; Member since: 30 Apr 2012)


did you know that apple is samsung's biggest client? Their deals in the business is not affected even who wins or loses. Apple will continue to buy components/parts from samsung and samsung will continue to sell them those components. Business is business. If samsung loses this war, then that's their fate, and they should not sacrifice bigger loss by giving up apple.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:06

31. TROLL (banned) (Posts: 4851; Member since: 13 Apr 2012)


Somethings not right, 9 jurys, I wonder why? Few less!

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:09 1

34. remixfa (Posts: 13902; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)


there were 10, one got removed early on.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:26

37. TROLL (banned) (Posts: 4851; Member since: 13 Apr 2012)


I thought there were meant to be 12?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:04 1

47. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


In a civil trial there's usually 9

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:15 6

2. Dr.Phil (Posts: 863; Member since: 14 Feb 2011)


This isn't the end of it. I honestly believe this trial is really just a practice run for Apple to see if it could go after it's real game: Google.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:16 6

3. XPERIA-KNIGHT (Posts: 2384; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


dude apple is no good give it up....

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 01:55 5

10. Dr.Phil (Posts: 863; Member since: 14 Feb 2011)


Where did I say that I was an Apple fan or supported Apple in any way? I was merely just stating my opinion as to the ulterior motive behind Apple. If anything my comment should've shown to be more Samsung-favored than Apple-favored, if you were to look at it that way. I was saying that Apple isn't using this lawsuit to go after Samsung but rather Google. This is evident in some of the patents Apple has been trying to challenge that go after the software Samsung uses rather than just the hardware. If Apple wins their case on those software patents, then it would be the "boost" they need to go after Google more directly. I am not saying that as an "Apple fan" or an "Apple supporter", but instead I make these comments as an observer as to what I think they are doing. Also, because you brought the subject up, I am actually an Android user.

I think you need to read more carefully and use some critical thinking skills before making such comments.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 03:50 2

18. XPERIA-KNIGHT (Posts: 2384; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


" I honestly believe this trial is really just a practice run for Apple to see if it could go after it's real game: Google."

This last statement would seem like you are almost ready for this case to end and see what and WHO else apple can conquerer.....it kinda implies an "anticipation" on your part to see what else is going to happen "FOR" apple......thats just the way it came off to me when i read it..

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 07:05 2

27. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Then re read it, cuz that's not what he meant.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 07:04 1

26. sithman (banned) (Posts: 299; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)


Good post dr Phil. Well said

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 13:32

45. OSFantasma (Posts: 119; Member since: 27 Sep 2011)


That might be the reason Google is letting there subsidiary Moto go after them. Seems to be turning into a game of sue or be sued. Then again I'm sure this will show consumers how apple is actually using tech that belongs to other companies with out paying while they sue for a crazy lump sum for ridiculous design patents like the rectangle and slide to unlock. I really hope Apple and Google can work this out without litigation. I'm tired of hearing this company did this and this that. I just want to see impressive technology being born.... Self driving cars, and self aware homes, nanotechnology advance os that help fight malware and make security firms look like ancient bussiness models...

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 02:42

14. jroc74 (Posts: 4720; Member since: 30 Dec 2010)


I agree. They want to go at Google so bad for Android. Some folks must have forgot that some icons Apple were crying about were part of stock Android.

The G Nex? Stock Android...cuz it looks nothing like an iPhone, so why is it even mentioned in Apple lawsuits?

Then the Google Now thing...they want to get rid of Android so bad.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 08:11

30. MartyK (Posts: 688; Member since: 11 Apr 2012)


I really don't think APPLE want any part of Google.

The reason is Moto just launch a 7 patents infringment against Apple this past Friday, and they never respond.

Plus, if they are watching their Rockstar Partner (Microsoft), Moto just won an infriongment against them and is trying to get their gaming system ban.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:23 7

4. techguy22 (Posts: 226; Member since: 09 Aug 2012)


sadly apple will win.
thats my biggest fear though.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:35 7

5. XPERIA-KNIGHT (Posts: 2384; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


doesnt matter if they win the battle because android will win the "war"

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:12 2

35. remixfa (Posts: 13902; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)


yea, if Apple wins against samsung, it validates their generic design patents for squares, rectangles, and green phone icons.
With precidence and Android's biggest manufacturer already gimped it will be easy for Apple to go after other suppliers. Android might not have a "war" to win.
Smaller guys like HTC and Sony will likely bow to whatever Apple demands if Samsung loses to avoid millions in legal fees and possible bans. If samsung gets a full smack down (very unlikely) there will be a massive void to fill and no one wants to be stuck in litigation while the other competitors fill it.

Apple doesnt need to confront the head of the octopus directly (google). If it can slice off all the arms, the octopus is DOA.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 02:40 4

12. jroc74 (Posts: 4720; Member since: 30 Dec 2010)


I think Apple is gonna win this too. Big Android fan....but being realistic.

The judge barely gave Samsung a chance in this case.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 02:44 2

15. tegradragon (Posts: 68; Member since: 23 May 2012)


Look even I'm being realistic, but Samsung just fell short of evidences. It was not the judge's fault.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:41 7

6. Savage (unregistered)


The Legend. Ends.
Meh, not legend, just an example to waste time and money will hopefully end. I'm curious to see how much was spent on these trails and if it was worth it.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 00:43 1

7. -box- (Posts: 3707; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)


Very exciting. May the jurors have wisdom and insight into the truth.

One plus: odd number of jurors, so no chance of a hung jury.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 16:52

56. tedkord (Posts: 4265; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)


Federal civil trial verdicts must be unanimous, but the threshold is a preponderance of the evidence, and not beyond the shadow of a doubt.

However, only one juror dissenting means a hung jury, unless Samsung and Apple agreed prior to the trial to allow a majority verdict.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 01:11

8. yatmiko (Posts: 36; Member since: 13 Dec 2011)


Wish for Sammy

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 03:29 2

16. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5528; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)


This little pissing match is nowhere near over. Regardless of how the jury decides, the loser will be appealing. If Apple gets the nod from the jury, Sammy already has a software patch ready to remove whatever is ruled to infringe. If Sammy wins, Apple files its appeal.

Meanwhile, the attorneys bill at $750+/hour, and add to the college funds for their kids.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 06:05 6

20. phitch (Posts: 214; Member since: 06 Mar 2012)


No one wins in this fight, which ironically will hurt Apple more than Samsung. The jury will probably be hung since all 9 have to agree on all counts of infringement.

Also am I the only who ever notices this trend "Apple and X company end discussions without reaching an agreement." Seems like no matter what company enters into discussion with Apple the end result is no one agrees to license anything. Seeing Apple's numbers in this case I get the feeling that it goes something like this:

X Company: We will license your 7 patents in exchange for our 7.

Apple: How about we pay .15cents per patent per device and you pay, say $5 per patent per device?

X Company: That's insane!

Apple: Doesn't matter, we are just going to use your patents regardless and sue you afterwards!

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 06:15 4

21. SuperMaoriBro (Posts: 255; Member since: 23 Jun 2012)


I own and use products from both companies. I am not a fanboy of either compnay. I am however sick of these ridiculous court battles over stupid design patents. Come on. Maybe fix the patent system so companies can't get a stupid patent on a shape? I really love my new iPad but I really hate Apple's ethos. It really strongly makes me want to NOT buy any further Apple products.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 10:09 1

40. u-suck-more (Posts: 529; Member since: 26 Aug 2011)


exactly!

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 09:47

39. nnaatthhaannx2 (Posts: 820; Member since: 19 Oct 2011)


Alan do you have any info on the jury... like what kind of phones they own?... If they have a mac or PC?
Do you know any of that?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 10:31

42. InspectorGadget80 (Posts: 6118; Member since: 26 Mar 2011)


Just hope the jury does the right thing find SAMSUNG NOT GUILTY. and I also hope THE BIG GREEDY FRUIT DOESN'T pay them with free APPLE products like the way they did to the judge

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 10:46 2

43. lateralus (Posts: 6; Member since: 23 Apr 2012)


I use products from both companies and somehow I fail to see why people turn this into a debate about which company/product is better to the point of personal attack ( "you like apple? Fanboy! Go die in a fire! Etc etc) this only goes to show how ridiculous our patent system is and how badly it is in need of reform. All innovating companies, including BOTH Samsung and Apple, draw inspiration from competition to stay relevant. According to our current system, is Apple owed some royalties? Is Samsung owed some royalties? Yep. But to the point of banning products and crippling innovation? Definitely not.

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 17:17

58. SuperMaoriBro (Posts: 255; Member since: 23 Jun 2012)


I agree. Defend your mates, defend your family. But I don't get why people have a need to defend a friggin company that will never care how your day was, or give you a Christmas present, or come visit you when you are sick....

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 11:15

44. Iphone4 (unregistered)


money talks at the end of day

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 14:47

49. Danalvi1981 (Posts: 47; Member since: 02 Jun 2010)


Why Is Apple's hand white and Samsung's Brown??? Just wondering...

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 15:37 1

53. lyndon420 (Posts: 1686; Member since: 11 Jul 2012)


Sammy is korean, and apple is american.

posted on 15 Sep 2012, 20:59

60. Danalvi1981 (Posts: 47; Member since: 02 Jun 2010)


but there both made in Asia so wouldn't that make them both Asian?

posted on 19 Aug 2012, 16:23

55. master0fursinz (Posts: 104; Member since: 26 Apr 2010)


Well win or lose Sammy should up the rates for the parts of any new iGoStealing device to have Apple payback themselves on the judgement.

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