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iOS 6 “fragmentation” detailed: which device gets what

0. phoneArena 13 Jun 2012, 08:27 posted on

“Fragmentation” has been a word heavily loaded against Android and a term a bit too broad for our liking. It’s true that software updates on Android devices…

This is a discussion for a news. To read the whole news, click here

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 08:30 13

1. wendygarett (unregistered)

Wow thanks Victor... You and Michael understand our feelings as an ios user... :)

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 15:29 3

94. Mxyzptlk (Posts: 12999; Member since: 21 Apr 2012)

Actually most iDevices get two updates. Timely updates. Android, you get nothing but a phone full of bugs after six months to a year.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 08:49 22

2. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)

Interesting what now Apple fans will say about 'fragmentation' ?

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:23 4

13. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

If this is considered fragmentation then that is a good thing for ios and here is why. Since apple can hold back on features on there os that older devices can't handle that means they can push updates to their older devices whereas in android you would get a laggy update or none if that happens. You tell me what you rather have. So android isn't fragmented (and fragmentation is good) its differentiated to a high degree causing problems for devices not on the base verision of the os supported by google. Sure apple abused this as an iphone 4 can handle facetime over 3g but there trying to push new devices and make money also. There a company afterall.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:28 28

14. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)

Apple fans attitude:

Android 'fragmentation' = Bad

iOS 'fragmentation' = Good

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:44 8

20. jmoita2 (Posts: 930; Member since: 23 Dec 2011)

Here is Apple's take on this:
"Do as I say, but don't do as I do".

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:49 1

23. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

PFirst of all I am no where close to an apple fan I have owned more android devices then ios ones. I love android and ios but i love different things about them. However this board is slanted android so i may come off as a "apple fan" but i am anything but. My friends all think i am a android fan as they are apple slanted.
Second of all I don't get how that cliche applies as apple does push updates.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:13 5

29. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)

I don't say that you are Apple fan. :)

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:05 1

46. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Well post 14 appeared that way lmao

posted on 14 Jun 2012, 12:26 1

105. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)

I just say what will say Apple fans, but I didn't said that you are an Apple fan. ;)

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 13:38 2

87. HTCFreak (Posts: 156; Member since: 17 Jul 2010)

No, only taco's attitude :p

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:31 17

15. tedkord (Posts: 11673; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)

I see we're now iRationalizing fragmentation. One day, if iPhones suddenly stop working en masse, you'll see people on forums stating how wonderful it is that Apple cares enough about its customers to want them to get off the phone and get out and exercise.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:41 2

19. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

You see i make a serious point and you come back at me with rubish. Considering ios is updating devices for 4 whole years and android if your lucky you get 2 and wait 8 months for that update this is an area ios is clearly superior. I don't claim ios is a superior os but updates have been fantastic. Its one reason ios users are so satisfied.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:30 2

34. tedkord (Posts: 11673; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)

I apologize if I came across nasty, I mistook you for another Taco or Gallito.

That said, I disagree. Fragmentation is fragmentation. It's either good or bad, depending on your point if view. It has the same effects regardless if platform - minor app issues. It can't be a bad thing on one platform, and good on another.

If Apple is leaving out features in some devices, apps which use those features won't work. That is the same fragmentation as Android.

The four year thing also isn't true. The iPhone 4 didn't get Siri 18 months after it was released. The original iPad isn't 4 years old, and its getting a castrated version of iOS6. If things are left out, its not the same OS.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:48 1

40. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Ok well first of all this post is much better and no I am not taco/gallito.

-The four year thing is kinda a up to four years of support considering the 3gs will have 4 years of support.
-I would say fragmentation the way apple does it has some good aspects at the very least since it allows older devices to get updates by withholding features. It sucks not to have said features but if that the price you have to pay for updates then count me in.
-Android fragmentation if you will doesn't have the issue of with holding a feature or two but has the much more serious problem of not updating devices at all.

Maybe some feel they would rather have the whole thing or nothing at all but I feel the compromise apple has set forth is better. Feel free to disagree but thats my take on the matter.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:02

43. elandrumiii (Posts: 109; Member since: 20 Mar 2010)

The original iPad is out of this up date it is gone the way of the OG iPhone

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:03 1

44. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Yes rip to the ipad we loved thee :(

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:31 2

56. gallitoking (Posts: 4718; Member since: 17 May 2011)

thats a poor excuse to sday you confuse him with me or taco.. different avatar and name.. just own up that you are a dumb@ss and dont make excuses

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:36

61. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Lol uhhh oo galitoking is in the house lol

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:59

83. DigitalBoy05 (Posts: 218; Member since: 04 Jun 2011)

agreed. apple gives the illusion of a uniformed ecosystem by giving older devices the same iOS version number but that has never meant they include all the new features. Apple though I will say leaves more features out than necessary to make sure their customers feel the need to upgrade sooner. Android I feel tries to update all the features the phone can physically support. And even if the Manufacture does drop update support, which lets face it happens to every device at some point, theres a strong developer community that is producing updates for the phone if you root.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 17:16 1

97. downphoenix (Posts: 3165; Member since: 19 Jun 2010)

Not sure why they thumbed you down. You speak the truth. I love Android, but in the past, manufacturers have been slow to update, and most manufacturers have not fixed this yet. Although we cant blame them entirely, sometimes carriers are to blame as well, they dont want to push out updates for phones that are End of Life or nearing it.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 20:36

100. Ivan6479 (Posts: 249; Member since: 26 Jun 2011)

Well "tedkord" is right indeed about Apple leaving some of the customers out to dry, so to speak and as for Android devices getting maybe 2 updates within an 8 month time frame, that is pretty good seeing how most people upgrade their devices about every 2 years or so. Lets face it though even with iOS6, Apple is still struggling to catch up to all of the features which are implemented into Android. Android had all of these features well over 2 years ago. So if your content with paying top dollar for a device, which looks cool, but offers you options which are outdated, then that's your prerogative and your just supporting a company that's frankly taking advantage of their customers. I guess their clever marketing techniques full all ages. LOL

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:05

70. SleepingOz (unregistered)


posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:52 8

24. medicci37 (Posts: 1276; Member since: 19 Nov 2011)

I knew ifans wouldn't let actual facts get in their way. Whenever Apple does the same thing that they have b*tched about Android doing. Ifans tell themselves, that Apple must have a good reason for doing it. & thats the end of their critical reasoning.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:02 2

27. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

First of all i'm not an ifan see above.

- second of all your making statements without backing anything up with fact. Your arguments are based on nothing but ifans are trying to rastionalize something where i give a valid reason why updates are the way they are on ios.

-lastly you just an android fan trying to rastionalize the faults in the android ecosystem by saying look everyone else is just as bad. But in reality apple is supporting the iphone 3gs for four years made possible by fragmentation. This is clearly a weakness of android an Achilies heal if you will. Something as an android user you should be pissed off about and say look how long apple supports their devices why aren't mine supported that long. You should be trying to encourage google to take the reins from the carriers to be able to do so. But no instead you make it a fanboy fight. In the end its your loss.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:13

28. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)


+1 for you. :)

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:28 1

33. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

How in the hell is that true. I never said apple must have a good reason for witholding features i gave the reason apple is doing what they are doing.
How biased are you. Do you want to actually talk about why apple doesn't have a good reason for this? No. You want to have a fanboy fight instead? Please lets have an intelligent discusion instead of what the peanut gallery is doing.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:35 1

59. gallitoking (Posts: 4718; Member since: 17 May 2011)

biophone. now you see why I behave like I do.. they never want to listen to other arguments.. always saying the way I say things.. but you have been polite and they have been nothing but rude.. anyways is always nice to read you.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:38 1

62. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Galo just because someone was rude to you doesn't mean you should be rude back.
But remixfa and superandroidevo haven't been at all so there is that.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:03 4

68. gallitoking (Posts: 4718; Member since: 17 May 2011)

hey SAE is a very civil guy ..sober..lol.. and remix.. I do respect him but love fighting with him..

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:04 4

69. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

you can always tell when I drunk post. I curse a bit more and dont even try to fix my dozens of spelling errors.. lol. with the new exercise routine though, im not drinking like i used to though.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:30 3

75. SuperAndroidEvo (Posts: 4833; Member since: 15 Apr 2011)

I have never posted drunk on PhoneArena.com because if I ever did it would look like this:

oawehgfQE47 BFD85ZGSDFE3Q20ASCddesgb7347$#^%&&

That wouldn't be too good. lol


posted on 14 Jun 2012, 00:26

103. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)


imma tell you right now.. ive had a ...few.... oz of vodka tonight. I may.. or may not be drunkposting/ :)

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:54 3

26. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

the philosophies are different

Apple will push an "update" and call it a new OS when its simply a bug fix with a new feature or 2, to older handsets. And apple has run into plenty of problems with older sets being slowed down (by design or accident depending on who u ask). So while it may look like there are more handsets on the same OS, they are not. Its false advertising.

Android manufacturers DO NOT send out updates just to send them. If the phone cant handle the update, it does not get it. Android manufacturers send out 100% of the update, not just parts of it. Otherwise, they rightly call it a "bug fix". While it makes the numbers look worse to anyone that wants to look at it, but its much more honest.

Nit picking one manufacturer over an update that "should have happened" is no different than nitpicking apple for not updating facetime on older handsets or adding Siri to the i4, which could clearly handle it. Its the same principal. They want you to buy the new device.

People only care because they are head first into a 24/7 news cycle that makes them think these updates are more important than they are.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:14 3

30. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

First of all remixfa I want to comend you are they only one to make a valid argument based on facts instead of trying to turn this into a fanboy fight and calling people names. Your maturity level is way higher then alot of peoples on this board. I can actually have a mature discusion with you.

- in my experience I have not experienced that so called slowdown but if people are saying a slowdown does exist that would play right into the argument that apple should withold features to try and prevent that slowdown.
-when apple pushes an updates you do get bux fixes and new features. Not all of them but i got notification center, reminders, imessage, icloud, and so on. Its clearly more then a bug fix. Sure if you get an update on android its better but thats a big if.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:15 1

31. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Adding on when android manufacters send so called bug fixes you don't get features. If your on gingerbread and got a bug fix you don't get face unlock off all the sudden. When i was on froyo i couldn't video call if o got a bug fix.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:23 1

32. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Lastly it is different in complaining a whole update don't happen whereas a update does happen you just don't have 100 percent of it. Atleast ios user are getting something. And for four years no less. And i agree both apple/google want you to get new devices their companies afterall and thats part of it and older devices could handle more then whats given but I would argue apple way of doing that is far more subtle and is kinder to the user. And updates are important its nice to get new features and even bug fixes are quicker on ios it seems. Galxey nexus for example.

Sorry for the broken up posts it wouldn't let me back in the box for some reason.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:33 1

35. SuperAndroidEvo (Posts: 4833; Member since: 15 Apr 2011)

Basically to sum it up, no OS is fragmentation proof. As an OS gets older & devices get better & better, fragmentation is inevitable. That is just the way of technology, plain & simple.

Apple did the best they could but it's impossible not to have fragmentation. The only way to avoid fragmentation would be to give every existing Apple customer a new free iPhone 5 when it comes out & guess what, that will NEVER happen. That is not mentioning the iPod Touches & the iPads. See it’s just not feasible. They would fold as a company.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:40 1

39. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Yes I completely agree you can't avoid fragmentation BUT there is different ways you can go about dealing with it.
Both apple/google when into majorly different directions with how they deal with fragmentation both with their own advantages.
The pros for google's direction are full updates in that you get the entirety of os not a half baked version but that also leads to short period of time for update support and long periods of time to get said update. Whereas in apple its the opposite. If you ask me I prefer apple's way of going about this or at the very least the Nexus strategy.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:34 2

37. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

the only reason apple updates happen more uniformly is because apple gets control of their devices through the contracts that they make carriers sign to do business with them. Thats a very good move on Apple's part.

Had Google had a little more hands on approach with this (they could at any time, really), then the "fragmentation" issue wouldnt be as pronounced. Remember, its not just the manufacturers that slow the update. It can take MONTHS to get past carrier update approval processes, something that Apple doesnt worry about.
The fact that the G-Nex on VZW STILL gets held back by VZW is absolutely mind boggling. The G-Nex should have been contracted similar to the iphone with direct updates. Android makes up a far bigger % of sales and profit than the iphone to carriers, and its about time they started pushing back against the carrier's BS.
At least with the SGS3 it seems that Samsung is finally using a bit of their weight to get some control over the devices again.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:56 1

41. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

-The control apple has is defiantly part of it something android should strive for as well but then again I doubt manufacturers has made any effort to update three year old devices.
-Also the carriers are only really affecting how long an update takes to get out not how long devices are supported for.
-It may be easier for android to support devices longer (not get updates out quicker thats really on the skins/carriers) if they would with hold some features older devices can't handle. It seems to work for apple (even though they abuse it which I wish they wouldn't)
-I completely agree on where you said the fact on.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:04 1

45. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

its more than just the timing. There is costs involved. If HTC submits an update and VZW rejects it, HTC has to go fix it and resubmit and the cycle continues until VZW decides to allow the updates.. then HTC gets to push the update. All the while they have to pay however many programmers to constantly redo the same update while working on the next.
Its a cost ratio. Thats why a lot of times you will see "beta updates" in the wild that never materialize through the carriers.
If they sell X amount of phones and make X amount of money on that model, they will only spend a certain percentage on updating it other than necessary bug fixes.
Another one of the many reasons to go after the big models and not the cheapies.

Its a crap system that will only be fixed when the Android manufacturers do 2 things.
1) reduce the UI overlays.. which for the most part is happening.
2) collectively stand against the carriers and demand the same treatment as apple when it comes to updates.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:10 1

47. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Well HTC not putting up the money for the updates is also kinda their fault. I also assume Verizon wouldn't reject most updates so this shouldn't be that much of a issue. I'm sure verizon would like to see devices supported to so I can't imagine verizon would flat out reject the updates. Maybe they would ask to fix a couple small things but not the entire update.

And those 2 points would help alot but more so of getting it out quickly (a major problem) then helping the longevity of updates.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:17 2

48. SuperAndroidEvo (Posts: 4833; Member since: 15 Apr 2011)

That just goes to show you how much power the carriers have. The carriers should just worry about the network & the OEM's should worry about their phones & updates.

The fact that Apple has control of the updates & Android or the OEM’s don't is mind boggling. Google & the OEM's should demand the same treatment as Apple. If it's good for one it's good for all. That is where Apple I think shines over Android.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:21 2

50. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

I think thats something we all can agree upon

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:23

52. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

apple is the first company to get control of the updates. others really need to step up.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:27

54. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

I think it has to do with the religious like devotion some wakos have towards apple that carriers know in order to get them they will need the iphone. Apple clearly is a different kind of company then most. In some ways good in some ways terrible.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 10:39 1

38. tedkord (Posts: 11673; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)

I've had 3 updates to my Thunderbolt in a year and a half. One was an update from Froyo to Gingerbread, the other two were optimizations/bug fixes. And, I'm supposedly getting ICS by end of summer. I have no complaints about updates.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:00

42. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

Heck HTC has been the best on updates and getting three updates is great but lets not forget when released the thunderbolt was the highest end android Verizon had at the time. For this high end device (which I owned as well) it came with a one year outdated OS took forever to update to gingerbread and by that time was outdated as well and will get ICS but by the time it does it will also be outdated. Sure its nice they actually updated the device but it took so long and you will never really ever be on the most current version of android. Thats insane to me for such a high end device.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:23 1

51. tedkord (Posts: 11673; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)

But, I'm not missing anything on Gingerbread that I'd get on ICS. It was mainly a redo of the UI, but an HTC phone gets Sense anyway. Plus, I can put any UI from the marketplace on it I want.

Now, going from Eclair to Froyo was a big deal, because you got Flash support. Froyo to Gingerbread was mainly just optimizations (not to say there weren't added features, but I can't recall any now so they weren't a big deal to me.

The point is, I don't think there's anything my phone will do with ICS that it won't do right now. There's nothing an iPhone can do that my phone won't do right now with Gingerbread. And, there is quite a bit my phone can do right now that no iPhone can do (with the possible exception of jailbroken phones, I'm not up on what functions that adds)

And, if I'm the type who needs the latest OS immediately, I have the option of going with a Nexus device. All the bases are covered with Android.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:26

53. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

oh no.. i used to work for VZW. they are very notorious about their update approval process. Its only something like 30% of updates get through on the first pass... if that. Thats why many times when there is a phone on multiple carriers, VZW is the last to get it. The least convoluted is probably T-Mobile as far as updates. They generally have the least stringent controls and least bloat ware. Sprint would probably be next behind them.

There are definitely other factors, but carrier bullshyt is a big one.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 11:35

58. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

I agree with you remixfa carriers play a role but I had no idea that verizon played such a huge role. I'm sure they wouldn't keep on rejecting the update till it gets to the point where a manufacturer wouldn't be able to push it at all though. That seems crazy.
And tedkord you would know more about android then me but the fact remains the updates are happening slowly on the thunderbolt and isn't a great example about how great android is doing with updates.

Anyway guys I got an Ipad 3 and what a machine. I didn't get the chance to sample android tablets because it was through education but I have noticed some app incompatibilities with the ipad the devs need to step it up lol. Words with friends looks terrible.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:09

71. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

no, unfortunately, they are crazy. If its not 100% what they want, then they refuse to allow it to roll out.

I dont know if you remember back when the Storm launched on VZW a few years ago. But to highlight what we are talking about, probably a dozen different test versions of MUCH BETTER software was filtering through VZW's processes before launch. Even with all the bugs at launch, it took like 2-3 months for VZW to approve something to send it out. Then it took another 3-4 months to get more "official" fixes out, and by that time customer satisfaction was through the floor.
Thats why many of use went to crackberry.com and got the unofficial software as it came out. Some of it worked way better than what VZW allowed to release. MY storm was awesome. Part of that was that I didnt wait for VZW to finally allow an update.

If VZW doesnt like the update, it doesnt roll. Period. And they will stop an update for the most mundane BS. Its sad but true.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:33

76. biophone (Posts: 1956; Member since: 15 Jun 2011)

I never had a storm but know alot of people who did. I don't' remember it getting any major updates but heck I think blackberry was partially to blame. They got lazy and rested on their lorals.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 12:51

80. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

no.. im telling you from experience. There must have been 12 resubmits to VZW for testing which got killed before the first "official" update. We used to be able to see the internal testing versions. I cant tell you how many times I told a customer "well, we got an email that they were testing version XXXX so it should be out any day now".. then we would get an email saying that version was canned and they are trying a new one. soooo many headaches.. I will never forget that.
In many cases manufacturers are to blame.. but with VZW, more often than not, its them, more than the manufacturers.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 23:00

101. RobotMan (Posts: 145; Member since: 13 Apr 2012)

Fragmentation is fragmentation. Good or bad it is what it is. Whether you sugar coated it or what, it still Fragmentation.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:47 2

22. dickwyn (Posts: 621; Member since: 07 May 2012)

fragmentation on iOS is not that worse for NOW only, who knows what will happen in the next iOS

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 08:50 16

3. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)

the reality is... its not a big deal. companies regularly hold back stuff on older models to entice you to buy newer ones. Its never been a big deal. Who made it a big deal? Apple and their fanatics. Also to blame is the constant news cycle about which phone are getting what.

There isnt one OS in history that isnt "fragmented" somewhere. iOS is fragmented, Android is fragmented, Windows is fragmented, RIM has always been fragmented, on and on and on. Its the nature of the game. Why would you buy the new model if you constantly get all the new toys on your old model? Android took "fragmentation" to new heights not because it was any more or less fragmented than other OS's, but because there were so many different models and there is a huge constant news cycle about each device and whats happening with it. It makes android users that dont know any better upset that they are not getting the latest OS update. Its information overload, plain and simple.

But in reality, you shouldn't care. When you bought the phone you bought it with an OS on it. You loved it right then and there. A new OS update coming out doesnt make your device "out dated". It doesnt affect your device at all. You didnt buy your device with a promise from the manufacturer (sales reps do not count) that it was gonna get all the latest updates. However there is an unspoken promise that you get bug fixes as needed.. that you should expect.

If you really want the latest update and just cant be appeased with the fact that your phone probably works near flawlessly as it is.. you can always root/jailbreak your device and have your way with it.

"Fragmentation" will NEVER go away. You cant jump from OS to OS to avoid it. You cant hide under your bed. The only thing you can do is unplug yourself from the constant news cycle so your not bombarded with the latest OS news all the time and go enjoy your device.

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:06 5

5. Mitchel (Posts: 228; Member since: 25 May 2012)

Very well said Remixfa.. I hope iFans will stop the "fragmented" and "copying" rants..

posted on 13 Jun 2012, 09:16 3

8. iamcc (Posts: 1319; Member since: 07 Oct 2011)

Good post. +1

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