What will it take for Google to bring 64-bit support to Android?
0. phoneArena 27 Dec 2013, 12:31 posted on
Last week, I posed the question concerning how much credit Apple deserves for the coming 64-bit evolution. The TL:DR version goes like this: 64-bit was already in the works in mobile in various ways. Apple certainly built the base quickly, and switched over its platform quite seamlessly, but being first to fully push into 64-bit doesn't necessarily mean that Apple deserves credit for something that was inevitable...
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10. rf1975 (Posts: 240; Member since: 01 Aug 2011)
Only different is, if this was done by any other manufacturer or Google, then most of them including PA will call it as a real innovation.
18. Ashoaib (Posts: 1252; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
What will it take from google to bring 64bit support? very simple answer.... a hard work for few months, and thats it... ;)
29. androiphone20 (Posts: 1399; Member since: 10 Jul 2013)
I recommend you go through the article again, it wont go down that easy pushing 64bit support will likely be seen next to Nexus 7 (2014) and is also too early. Google will have to ask developers who use native code (NDK) to move to 64bit. Manufactures and developers would have to wait for Google's call but some already rushed to it (Sammy)
52. tedkord (Posts: 4432; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Very few apps in Android use native code. Most are written in Java. Hardware drivers, the ROM itself, yes. Those aren't Google's responsibility.
The other consideration is we don't know what work Android has already done. It doesn't become open source until they release it.
This isn't going to be nearly as difficult as some partisans want to paint it.
82. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
What do you think is in the ROM? AOSP by none other than Google.
And what does make you think most apps are written in Java?
Google introduced NDK around the launch of Eclair, and it's exactly the time Android apps became interesting.
87. arcone1 (Posts: 18; Member since: 28 Dec 2013)
Most apps are written in java, most games are written in native - this is why Google introduced NDK, to allow seamless and easy way to port games.
102. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
I'd say most simple client apps.
I don't think PowerAmp is written in Java. Hard to imagine fft running properly when written in Java.
117. KRONeage (Posts: 39; Member since: 17 Apr 2011)
Java is actually a great language to code in. Because of it being a containerized Application layer. That can be written in any language for near any system. Including 64bit Apps and games on PC's to mobiles.
Even the greatest games can run in the Dalvik VM and it.... unlike Java can run more than one App at a time. You can stuff a monster 4K video in a java VM. Because it's designed as a cross platform equalizing container capable of even running a whole OS if a developer wants it to inside a VM. Not unlike Sun's Looking Glass Project!
But..... Google has a whole new ground up written replacement in Android Kit-Kat for a runtime replacement and it's actually no longer compiled at run time with a "Just in time Compiler (JIT)". The libraries for Android aren't just Java you know. They've written some of their own code and all they're doing is making it easier for developers to code in a high level language they already know!
Would any developer in his right mind stuff any high end game to run in a Java VM today? Not on your life! ....but Android is a different story. Especially with the new Dalvik replacement compiled at install. Like games on desktops or Consoles!
118. tedkord (Posts: 4432; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
What is in the ROM depends on the OEM. If it were simply AOSP, updates would be almost instantaneous.
Most apps are written in java because it's simpler, easier to debug and has almost no penalty because of Dalvik.
81. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
An extremely hard work for a whole year at least, and lots of extra workloads for many years to come - all thanks to the fragmentation.
124. arcone1 (Posts: 18; Member since: 28 Dec 2013)
Iit's at most few month of work (which is probably done already).
32. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5572; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
+1 on thanks for the informative article. Given the timeline for 64-bit to fully populate (hardware, O/S and apps), it would seem that rushing to upgrade to 64-bit in the Android space until probably 2015 is something of a fools errand.
65. steedsofwar (Posts: 243; Member since: 07 Oct 2013)
To me the article is saying that
a) it isn't really to do with 64bit but more to do with armv8? which the i5s has?
b) even though the i5s has armv8 and 64bit ready and has optimised its OS to be compatible, the app store apps are yet to update and enjoy the benefits. i.e. Apple is two thirds of the way there.
c) even in its current form, the improvements in real world usage over the other 32bit non armv8 devices is still arguably negligible RIGHT NOW.
d) It isn't hard for Google to do the same as Apple but they ARE behind. Samsung will simply meet one third of the equation by providing the hardware for the other two parts to catch up i.e. the OS (up tp Google to optimise) and the apps (up to individual apps to optimise).
2. Rajanvir (Posts: 21; Member since: 11 Dec 2013)
I m just waiting for LG G3 with NVIDIA Tegra 5 inside
16. Teja171 (unregistered)
According to the rumours, the LG G3 will come with their home grown LG ODIN octa-core soc.... Even i wish that it comes with an Nvidia Soc. :)
19. Ashoaib (Posts: 1252; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
Shhhhh! LG is reading n they will release with tegra5 for you :p
33. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5572; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
Hopefully the manufacturers will focus on other areas to innovate. Like camera modules with full OIS and low-noise image processing. That would helpd bridge the roughly 2 year gap before 64-bit was fully populated.
3. Loubielou (Posts: 202; Member since: 11 Jul 2012)
Samsung deserves the Credit not Apple for creating the 64gb bit processor,thats whats people have got stop praising Apple to much,without Samsung ,Apple would find it hard to get someone else to do this for them,just can"t wait to see the new Samsung Galaxy S5 at the MWC
9. rf1975 (Posts: 240; Member since: 01 Aug 2011)
There is a big different between manufacturing & designing.
12. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
Thats like saying you created a peice of furniture that came out of Ikea.
13. Quezdagreat (Posts: 413; Member since: 05 Apr 2012)
Apple designed, samsung manufactured and copied
54. tedkord (Posts: 4432; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Samsung copied something that ARM announced as coming out in Q1 2014 a full year before the A7? That's prescient.
69. Quezdagreat (Posts: 413; Member since: 05 Apr 2012)
How come they called it a marketing gimmick when Apple came out with it even though Samsung manufactured it?
119. tedkord (Posts: 4432; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Because the 64bit was a marketing gimmick aimed at people who think 64bit means twice as good as 32bit. They retracted it because they are and have been for some time planning their own 64bit mobile SOCs (also based on ARMs new instruction set) and knew that the comments would haunt them later.
121. Quezdagreat (Posts: 413; Member since: 05 Apr 2012)
64 bit is a gimmick for android because the os is not 64 bit ready
84. kabhijeet.16 (Posts: 629; Member since: 05 Dec 2012)
Samsung created the 64-bit chip for Apple..
Apple used it..
So apple is innovative...
20. Ashoaib (Posts: 1252; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
this is a thing, people praise apple for making designs on paper although it doesnt has a capacity to create anything physically, while the one(sammy) who has a capacity n capability to do things practicly is booed for copy
30. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
Dude its normal procedure for every smartphone maker to part out their manufacturing. Every Galaxy device sold in the US in the last couple years is using processors designed in the US by Qualcomm and fabricated in Taiwan.
43. Ashoaib (Posts: 1252; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
it is but you didnt catch my point, qualcomm can manufacture their processors too while apple has to relia on others or has to purchase technology to do so
44. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
Qualcomm doesn't manufacture their processors either. They licence it to TMSC in Taiwan. A chip fab that only creates chips from other companies' designs.
53. joaolx (Posts: 351; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)
How so? It wan't Samsung that created the ARMv8 architecture but it was Apple that designed and first made commercially available a smartphone with 64bit. Not to mention they actually make the OS unlike Samsung which probably has their arms crossed waiting for google to do the dirty work. btw what the hell is 64gb bit????
5. PapaSmurf (Posts: 7602; Member since: 14 May 2012)
Waiting for Qualcomm's 64-bit Snapdragon and Samsung's Exynos.
JakeLee in 3..2..1..
7. apple4never (Posts: 931; Member since: 08 May 2013)
lol i was about to say that, better get some popcorn...\**/ \**/ \**/
66. Finalflash (Posts: 1532; Member since: 23 Jul 2013)
I can't believe they wrote a full article to shut him up. Judging by his absence it might actually have worked.
85. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
Wow, what an impressive statement.
What this article says is :
- Android is far from ready for 64-bit
- Android will have problems with native apps during the transition.
- ARMv8 is certainly efficient
Exactly what I've been saying the whole time.
The only thing Michael doesn't agree with me on is Dalvik. What I can say is that he asked the wrong person about Dalvik in addition to somewhat misunderstanding my former contents.
I clarified this in another comment.
88. arcone1 (Posts: 18; Member since: 28 Dec 2013)
Yeah, what do I know - I write android apps (lately Artflow Studio, quite successful drawing app) for 4 years and previously I worked with java (that is I worked with JVM porting).
58. JC557 (Posts: 908; Member since: 07 Dec 2011)
After the introduction of 64-bit desktop and laptop processors it was pretty much expected for manufacturers like Qualcomm and ARM to create a 64-bit chip for them to enter the embedded and server market. I remember reading about this in magazines like PC World and MaxmimumPC years ago.
The only problem is the usual chicken and egg conundrum. Software won't be 64-bit unless there's a large population running 64-bit capable hardware while the hardware manufacturers won't do so until there's demand on the software side. It took Windows some time to make that transition but too many people stuck with 32-bit and insisted on running much older software.
74. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
Did you call for an exterminator, Smurfette?
64-bit SoC is no problem. 64-bit AOSP is THE problem.
6. Hammerfest (Posts: 365; Member since: 12 May 2012)
I really want to see more phones and tablets that have the same core base as my old Sony CLIE UX50, the separate audio processor on that thing made battery life unreal! Go Co-Processor's!
Now with one for LP-Voice, and more features coming as well, the next 5 years are shaping up to be pretty amazing!
For all those optimizations a new battery tech would make it all irreverent except for processing time!
55. joaolx (Posts: 351; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)
I rather have co-processors like the one in Moto X or in the iPhone 5s than having quad/octa core cpu that will never be optimized.
8. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
Too bad most people wont be able to fathom anything but faster clock speed + more cores = faster device. Increasing clock speed is the least efficient way to increase performance as far as battery life is concerned. And more cores would be effective if Android better took advantage of muti threaded apps. But most of Android is still a single threaded affair. Nice Article.
11. apple4never (Posts: 931; Member since: 08 May 2013)
i just had to go back and troll jakelee's comments after this lol
75. JakeLee (Posts: 783; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)
Where was I wrong? This well researched article just says almost the same .
79. MichaelHeller (Posts: 2654; Member since: 26 May 2011)
As mentioned in a different comment, you were right about the benefits of ARMv8, but well off in your comments about Dalvik and moving to 64 bit
14. taz89 (Posts: 2014; Member since: 03 May 2011)
Don't know much about this 64bit stuff but wondering is the end user going to see any real world noticeable differences or will it literally maybe a second or milliseconds quicker here and there. I don't even think the average consumers know there laptops or whatever is 64bit lol so I really don't think the move to 64bit will bother consumers any bit at all.
22. Ashoaib (Posts: 1252; Member since: 15 Nov 2013)
No! End user is not going to see the difference like iphone now has 64bit n you cant observe any difference bcoz it is not making any difference at the moment. Most probably, end user will not feel a significant difference bcoz the change will be a rapid one, not a quicker one. It will take all players to be on board then performace will reach the peak and all players are not going to be on board at a time
25. androiphone20 (Posts: 1399; Member since: 10 Jul 2013)
You clearly wanted to say something, I just can't figure it out. Your argument is not solid it needs a little, y'know
57. joaolx (Posts: 351; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)
It doesn't mean much right now because mobile devices don't require the same amount of processing has laptops or desktops. Right now the only apps having benefits with the A7 in the iPhone are heavy apps like audio editing but don't mean much. Beyond that the 64bit can still have some benefits in terms of battery I think.
17. vishalaestro (Posts: 40; Member since: 08 Dec 2013)
I still have some trust in intel mobile platform because intel and amd implemented 64 bit way back in 2003 and the windows platform also supported it ,just hoping to see a windows phone with intel processor in it with rocking specs with 64 bit processing because both intel and Microsoft are more experienced than any other mobile os platforms and manufacturers.
21. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
If Im not mistaken all of Intel's Android processors are already 64bit enabled and are just waiting on Google.
70. fireblade (Posts: 644; Member since: 27 Dec 2013)
ARM is REAL 64bit not extensions like x86. Too many windows clickers believe that 64bit is all about memory. They don’t understand that its a windows problem where 64bit code is 3% slower then 32bit code.
On real OSes with real 64bit you see huge performance gains just because its 64bit and you can crunch more numbers at the same time.
X86 uses 64bit extensions
ARM/PPC/SPARC/Power and so on uses FULL 64bit instructions and that's so amazing. It has both 32bit and 64bit instructions in it. Its “two” processors. Not one with extensions.
93. arcone1 (Posts: 18; Member since: 28 Dec 2013)
X86_64 is real 64bit, but it doesn't offered big gains (indeed most of the apps were a bit slower) because ISA doesn't change that much during this transition. ARMv8 however is a big change in ISA and this finally allow CPU to use modern optimization techniques (like highly OOE with wide fetch thanks to dropping conditional bits).
23. androiphone20 (Posts: 1399; Member since: 10 Jul 2013)
Anand Chandrasekher called 64-bit processor a gimmick just so he could cool down all the attention it was getting, they were caught off guard even when it was in the works. There was simply no better way to do it than to buy some time until Qualcomm developed their own chip.
26. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)
Lying is standard procedure in business.
56. tedkord (Posts: 4432; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
He spoke the truth, but Qualcomm was in the process of designing their own 64bit processors, and knew his comments would haunt their own products as well.
24. 1701nino (Posts: 236; Member since: 07 Dec 2010)
Sorry a little off topic but i don't get this all siri is bad google now is awesome nonsence???I have both on my nexus 4 and on my ipad and i can say that i use siri a hole lot more then google now and improvments in ios 7 are great i mean it's a whole another category siri is basicly an AI while google now is a service.