Wall Street not impressed by the new Nokia Lumia models as Nokia's stock is downgraded by brokers
0. phoneArena 07 Sep 2012, 20:46 posted on
While many smartphone fans were impresed with the bright colors of the new Nokia Windows Phone 8 models, Wall Street and the global brokerage community simply was not as firms like Deutsche Bank and Societe Generale downgraded Nokia's stock to "sell"...
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3. phonton (Posts: 65; Member since: 27 Dec 2011)
The next choice for Nokia would be to ask APPLE to market their phones! The phones will sell like hot cakes nevertheless
25. Dr.Phil (Posts: 1018; Member since: 14 Feb 2011)
How can they? It's not like they wouldn't want to, but it's actually Microsoft's fault it will be released when it will be released. Nokia doesn't even have the final build of WP8 yet, and Microsoft has set a time table of late October to introduce both Windows 8 and WP8.
63. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
In retrospect, Nokia should not have done the announcement until late October if they weren't going to be able to ship until early November. In addition to botching the announcement, Nokia have basically killed whatever market they had for their current Lumia phones. Notice how they have further cut the price to clear out unsold inventory? The next financial results announcement is going to be worse than the most recent one, because in addition to the on-going cash burn, Nokia is going to have to write off unsold inventory of current Lumia handsets.
One more thing they could have learned from Apple.
73. Rydsmith (Posts: 325; Member since: 20 Jun 2012)
Actually they don't. For Nokia, shipping their phones is actually considered a sale (when it comes to carriers). They sell them to the carriers at a wholesale price, let's just say around $400-450 for a $600 phone.
The carrier then sells them subsidized to the consumer at ~$100-200, gaining a customer for 2 years or getting ~$300 if the contract is ended early.
Mind you, this is from my knowledge working in the industry for the US.
NB! Nokia did foot a small fee for selling the Lumia 900 at a reduced cost on AT&T.
80. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
They don't what? Have to write off their inventory of unsold OG Lumias? Or?
88. MeoCao (unregistered)
They had to cut price of Lumias b-c of competition. The announcement gives them an excuse.
They would better do like you say if Lumias sell well.
56. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
Read the articles (I think The Verge had the most accurate info as they actually got to.play with some of the prototypes). The software isn't done yet, Microsoft is keeping features hidden even from the OEMs until announcement day, and even after that the OEMs have to install the software (RTM phase), get carrier approval (at least in the U.S. and Canada), then install the approved software on these hundreds of thousands of not millions of units, box them, ship them, and get them to warehouses and stores for sale. It takes several days at best to do that, but typically several weeks or months. Even longer if the factory is overseas and the devices have to be shipped by ship, which is why apple (and other companies who manufacture outside the U.S. makes their devices months in advance and stages them at warehouses for the initial preorders, so.they can be delivered to customers within weeks of ordering
5. rusticguy (Posts: 2828; Member since: 11 Aug 2012)
Nokia needs a reboot ... into Android. Elop may not want to pee in the pocket to feel the warmth but then he has no choice as he is trying to fish in a "pee puddle" in any case which isn't working.
40. Glim12808 (Posts: 394; Member since: 26 Oct 2011)
Yeah right because Motorola, LG, and Sony are taking in loads of money on their Android lineups. Even HTC is almost scraping the bottom with their great Android phones. It seems there's only space for one OEM in the Android market, and that's Samsung.
92. rusticguy (Posts: 2828; Member since: 11 Aug 2012)
Perhaps yes but then they are also wasting too much time on doing things that they know will fail. Waste time on explaining why no microSD card, why battery is not removal, why devices are being released in 2012 on GB etc. Samsung perhaps has got a better hold on what customers want and instead of trying to force their thought they are going by providing what market needs by and large.
2 year 50GB free account on dropbox isn't soemthing that can work on all markets as to upload those 50GB will also need money to be spent on data plan (and also recurring billing after 2 years) which would be far more expensive than a equivalent capacity microSD card i think. Yes Samsung also offeres 50GB drop box account but then they also offer expansion slot ... and then lets customer chose what's best .
By your logic Sony shouldn't be exploring WP8 (which they are considering) as no one seems to be really making money on WP except perhaps M$ :)
74. Rydsmith (Posts: 325; Member since: 20 Jun 2012)
Glim12808 hit it on the head.
Android is not the end-all-be-all salvation for phones. The only OEM that seems to be making a profit in the United States is Samsung. Even Asus tablets are losing money in their tablet division as it is android based.
HTC, Sony, LG, Motorola, Sharp (yes they did make a phone), all have not made large profits off android and have actually taken a hit on the OS.
82. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
Pantech, Dell, Acer, Asus, Huawei, and a few others who have sold Android haven't made huge profits off them. Partly due to pricing (undercut iphone pricing) and because they all come out with the same features at the same time with the same OS, minimal software add-ons (S-Voice, etc) and even the old overlays are dying out (TouchWiz, MOTOBlur, Sense) as OEMs cut development money for them and focus on the solid stock Android experience. In short, they're doing what Microsoft has been doing with Windows phone: same UI with a few pieces of software to differentiate, with slightly different specs here and there (PureView camera, Nokia Play, Music, etc) to enhance appeal
90. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
agree with you!! these company really dont make big profits from the android phones they sell!!but thats why android is really versatile.. i hate skinned android but thats how these manufacturer differentiate itself!!
its like symbian... nokia's symbian is different from motorola, sony-ericson and samsung!!!
but what makes makes me piss about Windows Phone and windows is that they cant differenciate!! they cant skin WP/win because it will never happen... all device running microsoft's software all look the same...but nokia's way of diffirentiation is through the exclusive lumia apps which is i think a good thing but a bad thing for other manufacturers that produce WP...
7. fanboy1974 (Posts: 1345; Member since: 12 Nov 2011)
I've been an Android fanboy for almost 3 years and the Nokia 920 made me rethink Windows 8. It might not make me switch over to WP8 but I do respect what I see.
The main problem I see is that they announced it without a solid release date and Apple's iPhone 5 will have already sold in huge numbers. And let's not forget the Samsung Galaxy Note 2. If your going to do battle release product asap.
15. Penny (Posts: 1478; Member since: 04 Feb 2011)
Yeah, the lack of an imminent release strategy is one of the worst things Nokia could have done in this situation in my opinion. If they announce it September 5 and release it November 2nd, they're just allowing any hype or buzz about the phone to die down before release.
It really is a solid product. I love that Nokia makes the effort to improve the hardware technologies of their devices that other manufacturers may put less emphasis on. However, while things like the 8.7 MP camera may technically be great, their investors and the general public were just looking for buzz words like 16/21 MP. Love the product but a misstep in business strategy.
24. -POLICE- (Posts: 8; Member since: 23 Aug 2012)
Failed by hardware specs. Nokia allways has been.
28. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
i am sure you dont even know the phone the guys talking about nither you know about the specs of the phone what a fat idiot it is head on specs with andoid u fool
75. Rydsmith (Posts: 325; Member since: 20 Jun 2012)
Calling someone an idiot and having "amazing" grammar like that is just astounding.
91. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
lets not blame nokia here.. its microsoft's problem that WP8 is still not ready! but it will be nokia's problem too since the next iPhone will probably go on sale on the next few weeks and it might sell like hotcakes again coz its an apple device and the next thing for iPhone...
their socks are so down right now!! so nokia need to work with microsoft so close coz nokia was a part of making WP8!!
but its either fly or die here!! nokia should release and announce the price before apple will steal the spotlight with its mediocre iPhone (i like iphone but its really getting old...but these iPhone will be worthy to buy but the next next, dont think so)
8. lubba (Posts: 1313; Member since: 17 Jan 2011)
Alot of haters here. Oh well, God made them. What can we do.
12. JoeBelfiore (banned) (Posts: 79; Member since: 03 Sep 2012)
Fandroids... dont be surprised by having tons of thumb down on even a positive comment regarding iPhone/WP
29. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
i wonder what these andoid lovers do all day visit nokia /WP8 artiles only does they have nothing better to do does they hate being challenged by new OS and the hate in them is just fasinating all u Andoid guys get a life and stop trolling even apple fans dont troll like u noobs
57. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
And the iphoners thumb down on Android articles. Can't we all just get along?
9. InspectorGadget80 (Posts: 7043; Member since: 26 Mar 2011)
Wall STREET doesn't know JACK. They only like their iPhones. they don't care for any other product
19. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
Wall Street doesn't need to know jack. The reason they like Apple is that Apple manages to give ship date and pricing when they announce their toys. Apple also manages to meet their published ship dates.
58. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
The 4S initial shipments kept getting delayed. Some who preordered as soon as it went live didn't get theirs until after they were available in stores. Massively under prepared, or clever marketing gimmick trying to create artificial demand because of artificially low supply? Reminds me of the Futurama episode "Attack of the Killer App" where the eyePhone is sold in store and the retail worker says "I think I have one more", reaches through a flexible barrier, and grabs one of the boxes piled high to the ceiling.
64. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
We aren't talking about a 1 1/2 month delay on the 4S. There is a difference. Worst case, those who had per-ordered and experienced a delay could have gone to an Apple store and picked up a 4S and then cancelled their pre-order.
69. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
Edit - pre-(ordered) instead of per.
10. Dr.Phil (Posts: 1018; Member since: 14 Feb 2011)
For a second, I thought that second picture was the real Lumia 920. I would have definitely gone for that concept with the on-screen buttons and those specifications to match.
11. quakan (Posts: 1293; Member since: 02 Mar 2011)
It's hard to do a product reveal right before Apple does there own reveal. They should have done it at least a month before. Those investors are anticipating Sep. 12th, so unless Apple reveals a bag of donuts, that stock will remain down for now.
16. Penny (Posts: 1478; Member since: 04 Feb 2011)
Interestingly enough, I haven't heard much in the way of rumors about Apples upcoming release this time around. Are they just being exceptionally tight-lipped, or is there not much to talk about?
Guess we'll know soon enough.
20. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
Are you serious? There have been more rumors about the new iPhone this time around than before the 4S was released. It seems the only unknown is what the chipset and camera sensor will be. Case photos, battery photos, motherboard photos have all leaked.
What were you not aware of about the new iPhone?
96. Penny (Posts: 1478; Member since: 04 Feb 2011)
My fault for not being clear in my previous comment Doug. Yes, we so far know many of the hardware and software details of the upcoming iPhone through rumors and previews. What I meant to say is that I haven't seen anything THAT interesting about the new iPhone this time around, and usually they have 1 or 2 big features that they rely on for their iPhone/iOS releases. So my question about them being tight-lipped or not having much to talk about was meant to question this specifically.
17. allen83 (Posts: 107; Member since: 01 Mar 2012)
Nokia your US North America focus is becoming a flop. Even if you fled the NA market the Asian market will still be hard to you because you destroyed our carrier realtions here. So sorry Nokia ut I still love my N9. Maybe if you go back to Meego Asian market MIGHT forgive you for having Microsoft in your side
41. Glim12808 (Posts: 394; Member since: 26 Oct 2011)
Meego is dead to Nokia, it's not coming back because they already gave it away. Time to move for you. Its either WP8 or Symbian. If you don't like that, move on to Android, iOS, or BB10.
76. Rydsmith (Posts: 325; Member since: 20 Jun 2012)
You know almost nothing about market strategy.
85. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
"Nokia your US North America focus is becoming a flop."
It kind of rhymes with Elop. :-)
18. Wiki_jaan (Posts: 704; Member since: 24 Jun 2012)
i think nokia want to be a heavy weight champion .... i mean 920 is 185g ....
21. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
All the more reason to buy two - to use as heavy hands while walking. :-)
66. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
haha... as small barbell...
86. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
Maybe more like a dumb-bell given how they have biffed their roll-out.
22. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
actually, im not also that impressed with the new lumia... im a nokia fan but its not that impressive as it should be.. the 920 could be better! even it has 32GB of memory, some people wanted a phone with expandable memory... thats why s3 is really a beast, it listen to people's wants--- removable battery, expandable memory, slim, big, bold...
but the 920 didnt.. yes it has an impressive unibody.. and its really tough and sturdy even though its heavy but its a compact phone!! but no expandable memory, if they dont want to put expandable memory, they should add memory choices like 16/32/64 like the iPhone..but if the 32Gb model will be price same as the 16GB iPhone--it will sell!!! as long as it has basic smartphone component now like NFC, LTE etc...
even though i dont care about what processor speed it got, it should be a quad core processor since its the latest trend of smartphones now...
even they say that pixel dont matter..but to consumer's eyes it matters...8.7MP sound ridiculous!!! if they could throw at least 16MP like the HTC titan and with pureview i think it will be worth to buy or at least they should put the suppose rumored 21MP pureview and will make a little bump on the back, i think people dont care about that coz they know the superiority of 808 pureview's camera!! ...but i think its because of WP restrictions.. and they even remove some features that people loves on 808 like loseless zoom... and maybe rich recording too!!
the 920 could be better if its not rush... i think nokia's "connecting people" is not working anymore!! they dont even listen to us anymore!!
and i think 820 should have the sensor of N8!!! its just hilarious if it is still a restriction of WP... coz N8's camera is still one one the best till now!
so hoping that they could announce better things on 2013--tablets, a REAL PUREVIEW TECHNOLOGY, a new revolutionary design and other new technology that they are preparing!!! i think people wont mind having WP run on 808 phone! :)
but i am hoping that nokia will make more new design, better design!! i think CES and MWC is a good event to launch new devices that will let us jaw drop again!! coz nokia world 2012 didnt make me drop my jaw!
the 920 is worthy as a flagship---with all nokia new technology like PUREMOTION HD+, etc, but still cant beat the flagship of others... i think ativ S is better than 920-light,slim but early prototype shows scratches on its body already... how much more if it will be out now! but as for now..920 is a best of WP!!!
45. MeoCao (unregistered)
nice rant, PureView is revolutionary but Nokia has destroyed the brand. 8.7MP is not what people expect from PureView and it sounds like cheating.
Nokia has many loyal customers but there are fewer and fewer of them,
54. Wiki_jaan (Posts: 704; Member since: 24 Jun 2012)
can u xplain this in some words ..............
55. SleepingOz (unregistered)
Nokia fanboys should open their eyes and be more like you!
59. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
You're a representative of one of the greatest misconceptions in the smartphone community.
Specs aren't everything. IPhone proves that. Still an outdated piece of junk but people buy it. There are only three of four quad-core smartphones, and their performance isn't justifiable compared to current and next-gen dual cores, plus the current OSes and apps aren't optimized for quad core, some not even for dual core yet. The ONLY advantage of an additional core for Nokia would be for one (it two) to process super-high-resolution photos, but, oh, that's right, Nokia already knows how to make that work on a single core processor on an out-of-date processor as evidenced by the 808 PureView! Not to mention the fact that more cores tend to (but not always) mean more battery usage, requiring either a bigger battery, or shortened runtimes, or severely under-clocked multicores, which defeats the purpose; additionally, more cores on the current architecture means more room on the chassis, requiring other parts be removed or the phone enlarged: the international quad cores don't come with LTE because it wouldn't fit on the chassis, so dual cores are used for LTE carriers, and they keep up just fine with their quad-core brethren.
Are more cores coming in the future? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing? Not at all, as long as the OS and the software can actually use it. When dual-core computers started hitting the consumer market, it took months, even years, for software and hardware makers to be able to make use of the new capabilities; the initial devices were mostly just a marketing gimmick. That has all been figured out, and now we have hex- and octo-cores in consumer computers, and it was worth the wait.
As for the 920's camera, I, too, was a bit let down, but I know there was justification for the lower-resolution camera, be it the non-expandable memory (which, I agree, is a bit off-putting, but as long as higher capacity versions are made available as they are rumored to be, that should be fine), OS limitations, design limitations, or just so that they can release something better in a few months to compete with Android K-named dessert. I was wholly expecting something in the 16-21MP range, but I'm not disappointed, because the production camera is still better than my point-and-shoot, still better than any other smartphone's excepting the 808 PureView, and I don't have any screen or printer that is greater than 1080 HD so more megapixels would be useless anyway, unless they were utilized like on the 808 via oversampling.
62. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
dont compare nokia to iPhone..because most people will buy the iPhone for simplicity or just a mere status symbol!!!
and yes they iPhone dont need latest of the latest..but nokia need to live in the world standard not on their own standard! nokia isnt living with the iPhone's hardware...if they really listen to people and connects people, they will throw quad core and any latest tech out there coz people are so hungry about it!! but these people will never understand that dual core and quad core on a smartphone doesnt matter... sony xperia T outmatched s3 international version in benchmark test..thats why WP8 change its supports of processor and let it run on multicores coz they need to live in the world standard, but we all know that lumia 900 is really fluid and even nokia's symbian 808 or 701, these two can still outmatch any dual core android phones in the same price category!!
and the one buying iPhone dont want to have a complicated life.. its just simple, easy to the eye and to the feeling...but apple's strategy isnt for mass market.. they are always on top spots! WP offers these too but iPhone is still the one selling!!
and im dont really dislike 920.. i like it but it could be better... and we are talking about business!!! so nokia need to go with the flow with it...in mot disappointed to the camera.. i like it coz knowing nokia's camera history, they are really good so i trust nokia..but will consumer's trust them? after faking the videos?---but i will still trust nokia...
even RIM is prepping its BB10 some cool features that is "standard to people's eyes", they are working on a voice assistant? does WP has a voice assistant? if your answer is TellMe, then no.. its a fail.. siri will now evolve and google now will be better..
i am just analyzing things... i have high hopes to 920 but it just didnt reach it!
65. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
it seems that people dont agree with you!i dont even thumb down you!
we dont act a fanboy/fangirl when we do analysis!!! coz the truth is that 920 is a good phone, but it could be better!!
who know if samsung will release new phones with latest tech on upcoming devices?! (just an example coz i think samsung already announce their big smarphones, the s3 and note2) can these lumia survive...
iPhone and Samsung Phones are now a big names, household names... nokia isnt as big than it was before!! they need to impress people--- consumers and investors... but nokia's shares just go down by 16% because investors are also not impress with lumia 920.. come tech sites are impress but they are not... nokia failed to bring something that people are waiting for months, the 41MP pureview... they even remove the best feature of the WP8 that people are really looking forward to--expandable memory!! but 820 has it..upcoming lumia phone like the reported "zeal" and the newly reported "flame" will have expandable memory..
820 also use unibody design.. so why 920 dont have expandable memory? 920 impress a lot but some people dont... even the 8MP camera of 920 is superior to todays 8MP smartphones like oneX, S3, iPhone and even Lumia 900!! it even matched 808 pureview!!http://www.theverge.com/2012/9
but again, investors aren't that happy coz they got high hopes of the 920 like i do!
but dont get me wrong, 920 is a really good device!!
77. Rydsmith (Posts: 325; Member since: 20 Jun 2012)
Holy s**t you just raped the English language.
84. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
why.. did i write wrong? sorry, im not that good in english... as long as i could talk and understand english, im ok!!
30. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
and I wondfer what more innovative stuff did samsung or apple brought in their new devices that people says nokia didnot have any new in this device where i see it
SGS3 = looks cools but 0 new stuff in hardwarre (dual/quad core is not innovation its what they get from chip designers) same camera.
Iphone5 = only bigger screeen what else same camera.nothing else heared so far that new or innovative in hardware.
lumia920 = New camera Technology , New Screen Technology , wireless charing integrated(others OEMs makes this as seperate feature)
Still most guys think the samsung or apple made something different this expains the blindness of people or they cant admit the reality more then they can swallow. and these are only hardware features i am talking about
going to softwares only jellybeans new IOS5 i heard is nothing new , WP8 totally new with almost half the features not known.
32. pegasso (Posts: 241; Member since: 27 Nov 2011)
I understand why so many people feel upset with Nokia.
I used to be a Nokia fan, especially their Symbian line-up.
when Nokia release their Lumia phones few months ago, i was excited and tried one.
and the result is, the Lumia definitely won't be my next phone.
IMHO, WP is just a pretty face, it can't compete with Symbian in term of functionality.
ie: Symbian supports native video call, WP doesn't.
Symbian supports Bluetooth FTP, WP doesn't.
Symbian supports USB storage mode, WP doesn't.
Symbian supports ext. microSD, WP doesn't.
that's the reason why I felt betrayed when Nokia said that they'll no longer support Symbian and switch side to WP.
how dare they leave Symbian OS (and Meego OS) for an OS with very limited functionalities like that?
my last Nokia phone was Nokia N8.
and I won't buy any Nokia WP phone,
at least until WP can match Symbian functionalties...
33. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
u are so not updated man half the features u are crying for is already available on wp8 SD card support/video call/bluetoth file trasfer. why u guys dont check the specs before posting noobish comments
35. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
no actually i think he/she meant was the early time... ofcourse it is different now..
and im with him/her coz symbian is still capable OS... they shouldnt abandon symbian completely and jump altogether to WP!!! symbian catch the game before WP8 was announce.. it catch the game when nokia 701 was announce and blow camera phones out of the water with 808..but what did nokia do? abandon the OS completely!!!
nokia's lumia wont be these beautiful if N9 wasnt announce!!! the design team of N9 was maemo/meego team, it is a product of that team not nokia...nokia steal the "suppose" spotlight of meego when it announce lumia 800--same look of the N9 but productivity wise..N9 should have all these glory not lumias...N9 is still superior... N9 was cheated... its body was use by lumia... and worst, nokia abandon it! and im thankful that the team behind N9 resign/fired from nokia and started their own company and continue the meego and mer project and now called "jolla"
38. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
Symbian architechture wasnt desinged for smartphones it was forced on the touchscreen so they had no option but to rebuild completly from scratch and their was little time and little cash for that long process meego is cool but with little scope even open it wasnt so powerfull and with lots of app Nokia needed to lay of the software burden due to drop in their sales othervise they would have sticked to meego. and Meego team was paid to makes desing they never worked for free so how can u say its Meego team that not a good statement N9 was nokia phone lumias are nokia there is no cheat this is the cuz of trends Symbians cant go far soon again it would have felt underpowering then what
68. pikapowerize (banned) (Posts: 1869; Member since: 03 May 2012)
oh and not to mention the belle fp2 (MyNokiaBlog reports that it will be suppose to be called nokia donna) is really advance and really neat!!! i think its ICS version of android!!! really good... but what did nokia do?
thats why i kinda hated nokia for that... i love symbian coz it didnt give me big problems unlike android!
37. haseebzahid (Posts: 1853; Member since: 22 Feb 2012)
and the lagginess of symbian that was a the biggest pain i left symbians for type phones better leave it on quarty it doesnt fit on touchscreen way to laggy i love WP it doesnt need mass customization to be cool it is wonderfull lagg FREE and awsome OS and yet the limitations are being handle unlike in IOS wp is being updated with the featues it should have in wp8
61. -box- (Posts: 3978; Member since: 04 Jan 2012)
I agree, except about lagginess, at least with the number-only models (700, 701, 808, etc). The updates to Anna and Belle for the prior models (letter and number like C7, N8, E7) helped a lot as well, and showed there is plenty of potential left in the so-called "burning platform"