Steve Ballmer on Windows Phone: “We haven’t sold quite as many as I would have liked”
0. phoneArena 15 Sep 2011, 04:37 posted on
You’ve heard it before - Steve Ballmer has previously mentioned that Windows Phone sales have gone “from very small to very small,” but now nearly a year has passed since the launch of WP7…
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1. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
" fell behind that of Samsung’s bada, which is plain bad"
that's not bad, that is expected. bada is a much better OS than WP7, so that's nothing surprising.
2. Bob (unregistered)
LOL! Stop trolling man, we all know that's not true.
3. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
We all know that bada is better than WP7,it is a fact that bada has more functions than WP7, you can't deny it. And in my opinion bada has a much better UI too, but other people have different taste, so some people might actually like the metro UI on WP7 better than bada's UI.
4. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
People vote with their wallets. If they like WP7, then they buy WP7. If they like bada, they buy bada. More people buy bada, means more people like bada better.
7. droidnator (Posts: 87; Member since: 10 Mar 2011)
How many times can you write "bada" in a f**n sentence? Seriously, stop trolling.
8. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
how many times can you mention android in an article ?
As long as i'm on topic i can mention bada as many times as i like !
9. droidnator (Posts: 87; Member since: 10 Mar 2011)
Lame argument. Articles are something different, besides no author uses "Android" as often as you use "bada". And in this case it's comments we are talking about. Your annoying bada-infested comments. I get it - you like that OS, but you are getting overboard with it!
And you are offtopic - the article is about WP7, while you turn the attention to another OS that was barely mentioned, and turn this discussion thread into a bada discussion. Troll.
Oh, and you can stop thumbing your posts up.
10. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
I'm not off topic. They mentioned bada, and my comment was about their mention of bada.
I'm not using the word bada, more than any of you are using the word android or iphone.
12. droidnator (Posts: 87; Member since: 10 Mar 2011)
See? I told you you are getting overboard, and that you are annoying!
In a short comment of two sentences you used "the B word" 3 times! Ever heard of synonyms? You can substitute that damn word with "it", "OS", "platform", whatever!!!
And bada was mentioned EXACTLY once in the article, and look at you - clogging the thread with offtopics because of one simple mention. How old are you anyway?
11. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
Who says i'm thumbing my own posts up when i'm not ?
14. daniel_bargs (Posts: 325; Member since: 27 Nov 2010)
i do believe much in Microsoft when it comes to softwares but hey, Samsung with their bada? that is a great mistake samsung did.
19. BadaCurious (unregistered)
Is the Wave the only Bada phone so far? Is it available in the States? If so, is there a CDMA version? I know its selling like hot cakes some places and I'm curious to try it and see what its like.
27. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
There are more phones with bada than just the wave. There is also the Wave 2 and the recently announced Wave 3 (with awesome specifications). There are also quite alot of cheap phones with bada as well.
I don't think bada phones are available in the US with any carrier (yet), but you should be able to buy from online stores like amazon or ebay.
58. BaduCurious (unregistered)
Yes, I've seen them but I've never seen a CDMA Wave. I don't want GSM.
39. THEJET88 (Posts: 18; Member since: 11 Sep 2011)
Aye peter Why don't you just go to the bada section of this website???..... Oh yeah i forgot.......
5. SemperFiV12 (Posts: 936; Member since: 09 Nov 2010)
Dude you really need to find a hobby... or a girlfriend.
6. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
I'm just correcting a little misstake that Phonarena did, they forgot to mention what i wrote above.
13. Mooooo (Posts: 212; Member since: 27 Aug 2011)
Ballmer sure is entertaining to me.
What a character
23. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
I'm fine thanks, and you ?
I'm trying out the win 8 developer preview today : )
17. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
i love the stock picture of balmer that they use whenever he says something. looks like he is in the middle of an "evil laugh" after a long diatribe describing what his evil plan is.. lol.
back to the article
bada is a feature phone OS. no smartphone wants to be behind a featurephone fighting for last place.. lol.
24. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
I too find that picture of ballmer hilarious : P
When it comes to bada, it is not a feature phone OS no matter how many times you say it. It is a smarphone OS. Now, go check it out before you say anyhing like this again. Go and have a look atwww.bada.com
28. hepresearch (unregistered)
... and BREW MP claims to be a "smartphone platform", too...
30. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
brew has nothing to do with bada.
bada has, multitaksing, HTML 5, Flash lite, Voice recognition, samsungapps app store *(with more than 6500 apps for the wave), file manager. And you can personalize bada more than you can with Symbian, WP7 and IOS !
40. antifanboy (unregistered)
You must be kidding! almost 3000 of your 6500 "apps" are Themes, what is nothing else than an icon-set and a view more graphics! The appstore is really the biggest crap i have ever seen. This year there have been more themes released than apps! And the quality of these so called apps is unbelievable bad, you don't believe it.
Even the new browser of bada 2.0 is crap. Bada 2.0 has still got the agps bug, which is known since more than a year and samsung is still ignoring it. i'm sure it won't be fixed in the final release.
Nobody should be wondering why bada sold more devices than wp7. it's because they have crappy devices which are sold below 100€. the other devices have a brillant hardware, which attracts many people, and many of them are pissed later by the crappy bada os.
i have already written it somewhere else: i have devices with symbian, bada, android, wp7, and iOS: Bada is definetivley the worst one!
And now please stop trolling!
46. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
Just to clarify something, i have had Android, WP7 symbian (still have 2 phones with symbian) and bada. And bada definitely is the best ; ) WP7 comes in at second and Android at third, with symbian at last place.
there is not 3000 themes !!!
Of the 6500 apps, about 1000-1500 of them are themes.
with the first Wave s8500, the GPS did not work. However, with the Wave 2 s8530 the GPS is fixed and it works perfectly.
53. antifanboy (unregistered)
it's ok to give your opinion. but lying isn't fair.
It is proven that Agps is broken on any bada device so far. even with bada 2.0. search the web. and remember, there is a difference between gps and agps, what means the internet part isn't working.
and yes there are almost 3000 themes, you can find exactly 2882 themes for wave 1 or 2. check samsungapps.com! and most of them were released this year. by the end of the year 2010 there were about 3000 apps. this means there was a growth of 1000-2000 apps. and almost noone was a major one.
check this site:http://www.krishanadmin.de/sam
there you can sort between apps and themes. you will find that almost twice as much themes as apps have been the last weeks!
Noone is satisfied with samsungs appstore. even the biggest bada enthusiasts i know are complainging about that und you are trying to tell folks your bada kids crap is the best OS. ridiculous!
41. hepresearch (unregistered)
hmmm... let's see, Flash lite, Voice recognition, apps and app store, file manager, personalization... this sounds a lot like another "OS" that's out there. In fact, their motto even proves that they have "apps"... so here's the million-dollar question: Which platform is marketed under the motto "How the other half apps"?
I'll give you three guesses...
34. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
bada is a feature phone OS.
And no matter how many times you say it, google will never drop all their partners and start acting like Apple and gouging customers on phone pricing, like you keep hoping because u think somehow people will run to... bada.. lol
38. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
bada is not a feature phone OS, it is a smartphone OS that's a fact. You have not even tried bada. You can't say bada is a feature phone OS when it is not.
If you believe so much that bada is a feature phone OS, then can you please tell me what makes you think that ???
When it comes to Google, i'm not saying google will drop their partners. I'm saying the opposite, their partners will drop Google, and you will see that in 1-2 years.
42. hepresearch (unregistered)
well, if Bada is a "feature phone OS", then so was iOS in the beginning (although it has evolved a lot since the original), and so is BREW MP (not to be confused with straight BREW as on Verizon's feature phones, but still a "feature phone OS" in my opinion... at least a very cheap shot at a "smart phone OS")... I'd like to see where you get your facts (probably from Samsung... nyuk nyuk nyuk!)
I am sure there is plenty to debate on the whole smartphone vs. featurephone status of Bada, and there will be support for either side. However, your last statement is highly highly unlikely. Samsung and LG I could possibly foresee dropping Google at some point, but Motorola, HTC, Sony Ericsson, etc... they will not drop Android for Bada... no way, won't happen. I just doubt it will be any worse than that.
59. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
actually, iOS WAS a feature phone OS. It didnt become a real smartphone OS until iOS3 or 4.
43. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
partners wont drop their giant company saving cash cow called "android" unless google drops them first. As long as android is free (or nearly free), supported, and is out there, android will exist on multiple platforms, services, and from different companies. Why would a company ever give up a huge, uber popular, nearly free platform and bring it in house where they have to pay millions and billions to develop and maintain it unless they were forced to? That doesnt make one bit of sense.
peter, your a nice guy but you cant possibly understand google, android, or why its so popular if u think that. its just.. not going to happen.
why do i call it a feature phone OS? Because its Touchwiz, taken from Android, and plopped on a lesser platform. If its lesser than a smartphone, then its feature phone. What feature set does it have that it can be called a smartphone?
45. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
I agre that a Os that can't do all the things that a smartphone can, should be called a feature phone OS.
however bada is definitely not "lesser than a smartphone".
I can give you a list of some of the basic smartphone things bada can do.
Samsungapps (for downloading and installing apps, for example Office app).
with bada, you can install Java apps.
Widgets and shortcuts on the homescreen.
Pull down notification bar.
Folders (to place apps in)
You can use your bada phone as mass storage on a computer.
thetering (if that's how it is spelled in English).
I can't really see how you can call this a feature phone OS...
60. hepresearch (unregistered)
ummm... I can do pretty much all of that (with the exception of multitasking and HTML 5 support) on a Java-based Nokia Series 40 feature phone... and I have seen the multitasking done on all sorts of old and outdated smartphones since Symbian 6.1 (S60 1st Edition and UIQ), Palm OS, Windows CE 2002, and the original BlackBerry OS, among others. HTML 5 support is admittedly newer, but that is pretty much the only thing you have listed here that sets it apart from many feature phones and some smartphones. HTML 5 support will trickle down to feature phones soon enough, so the only thing which can differentiate Bada from feature phones is the multitasking... at best.
67. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
And there is nothing that IOS or WP7 can do that is any better than that, in fact alot of the things i've listed WP7 and IOS can not do.
So you've just said a Series 40 feature phone can do almost as much as IOS and WP7, nice !
I have not seen neither IOS nor WP7 having wifi direct, file manager, NFC, mass storage, pull down notification bar (that's coming in IOS5, but bada had it since bada 1.0).
So your point really is invalid. Why do you fail to see this ?
70. hepresearch (unregistered)
Peter, if Nokia is going to be making WP7 devices, I can almost guarantee they will have NFC.
What do you mean by "wifi direct"? Are you referring to Hotspot functionality, or just plain WiFi? In the event of the first, that is not something that every smartphone has anyway, therefore it is hardly worth mention as a defining trait of smartphones. In the event of the second... well, I don't even need to go there.
Why bother to have mass-storage any more, when your smartphone is connected to the "cloud" all the time anyway? Granted, I like having mass-storage mode and a file manager, but most people today have no real need for them as applications automatically do the sorting and opening of files for you. I have never seen anyone actually use a file-manager on Android either, not even my brother on his HTC MyTouch 3G, Motorola CLIQ, or Samsung Gravity Smart. Google, iCloud, SkyDrive, you name it... there are so many integrated solutions that I really don't think people even need to synchronize with a computer (whether PC or Mac) any more. No mass-storage, no file manager, no PC-sync... at best, they are soon to be a hold-over from the era of the "classic" smart phones and "expandable memory".
Pull-down notification bar? Really? I never knew that the definition of a "smart phone" required a pull-down notification bar...
So, yes, Series 40 can do a lot of what iOS and WP7 each did at their advent. Granted, they had much larger displays, nicer touchscreens, more features in general, better graphics engines, yada yada yada. However, I think it is generally accepted that iOS and WP7 have become smart phone OS's in their own rights. Bada sounds a lot to me like an Android-Lite; it does most of the essentials, and a few nice bonuses, but fails to do a few widely-accepted smart phone abilities, and has nothing that somebody else doesn't already do. Ummm... it seems that your point is truly the one that is invalid here... and as for why you fail to see it, well, I don't really need to ask. Bada fanboy-ism...
71. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
You say that "but fails to do a few widely-accepted smart phone abilities"
Now please point those out to me. I can promise you 100 % that, that is not the truth.
bada can do even more than both IOS and WP7 can do, so that is not valid.
72. hepresearch (unregistered)
I am not disputing that there are, indeed, things that WP7 and iOS will NOT do that Bada WILL... however, what I am trying to point out is that the things which Bada does, that WP7 and iOS don't, are not features that major markets (non-emerging) are going to care about all that much. Bada may indeed do well in markets where people are buying their first entry-level smartphones. I mean, look at ME for cryin' out loud! After the "Elopocalypse" in February, my favorite OS, Symbian, was essentially declared dead and gone... then I went and lost all my Symbian handsets I had been collecting over time, just to end up replacing them all, most recently, with an older-than-dirt Nokia 6620... that's S60 2ND EDITION! I am not saying that Bada has no merits... what I am saying is that Bada, to most smartphone enthusiasts, is irrelevant. I have no doubt your Samsung Wave will dance circles around my classic Nokia (which is all the more irrelevant than your Samsung Wave), but Bada is not what the majority of smartphone guru's are looking for, and it is not what I would look for in a phone, either.
BTW, the Samsung Wave 3 features a 5-Mpix camera (well behind other competition), has a single core processor (not dual-core, like many other competitors), and with HSDPA limited to 14.4Mbps is certainly not "4G" by anyone's definition (which puts it on par with WP7 and iOS in that respect, but behind Android). It also does not excel in the department of screen size, pixel count, or any other area I can find. I really can not see how you can say this is much better than an iPhone or WP7 device. Sorry, Pete...
73. PeterIfromsweden (Posts: 1230; Member since: 03 Aug 2011)
When it comes to 4G, no one i using 4G in europe yet. 14.4 mbps is really fast, much faster than the iphone 4's 7.2 mbps.
the screen size on the Wave 3 is 4 inch, that is more than the iphone 4 and more than some WP7 too. In fact, alot of people don't want huge 4.5 inch screens, they want' smaller screens and for me 4 inch is perfect. the camera on the Wave 3 is 5 MP, but if you have seen the review the pictures are really good anyway, It is not always the megapixels that counts.
when it comes to processor, we don't know for sure yet if the wave 3 has a single or dual core processor. I have read the official information from samsung in detail and all they say is "1.4 ghz processor". They say nothing about it being single or dual core.
But if the processor on the wave 3 is single core, 1,4 ghz is still very good, much faster than most android phones on the market, and faster than any WP7 or iphone on the market.
But i'm not talking about the hardware, i'm talking mostly about the OS.
bada OS, is better than IOS, WP7 OS and Symbian OS.
bada OS, has more functions and more personalization settings than both IOS and WP7, there is no denying that.
most geeks probably like android OS best (at the moment, that might change), but you must remember that the average buyer is not a geek. The average buyer wants someting that has a nice UI, is fast, simple and has alot of functions. bada can offer that better than IOS or WP7 can. And when it comes to a OS being simple to use, bada is simpler to use than Android (and lots faster too), but bada still has more functions than IOS or WP7.
74. hepresearch (unregistered)
Okay, this I can work with...
I don't really care all that much about the difference between, say, HSDPA 3.6, HSDPA 7.2 and HSDPA 14.4... they are all faster than I really have ever needed. However, those in the US market who wish to be "on the cutting edge" these days will not be settling for 14.4 Mbps if they know anything at all (well, unless they are iPhone fans, in which case "4G" is currently irrelevant to them). In this respect, Bada may be respectable, but it is not "cutting edge".
Yes, the iPhone has been stuck at 3.5" since its invention, but this is because iFans apparently don't mind the smaller screen (and honestly, I'd rather keep my screen at 3.5" or less, so I have to agree with them on that). Your Samsung Wave, at 4", is a little on the larger end of things, but is still dwarfed by the abundance of bigger Android specimens weighing in at 4.5" or more, and even some WP7 devices which are beginning to approach 4.5". Once again, Bada may be respectable, but it is not "cutting edge".
As for the camera, once again I could care less. A 2-Mpix camera with a flash takes photos that I would consider sufficient for just about anything. However, I have seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the 5-Mpix camera on your Wave 3 does any better than the 5-Mpix camera on an iPhone 4, and I doubt that it does as well as a model with 12-Mpix camera, such as the Nokia N8. I have not seen any such evidence, aside from the hearsay you have spewed here.
Well, I now understand why you are having this difficulty... you seem to put a lot of stock in Samsung's official line. Everywhere else I have looked, the specs insist that the Wave 3 is endowed with a single core 1.4 GHz processor. This is not bad, but it is not "cutting edge", as there are faster processors out there, both single and dual-core, and Samsung withholding that detail from their official line only suggests that they wish to keep good trusting folks like you in the fog of uncertainty. 1.4 GHz is faster than many Android devices these days, particularly the lesser ones, but it would only have been faster than "most" Android devices, well, a year ago. Faster than the iPhone? Yes, but only until the iPhone 5 comes out. Faster than WP7 devices? Well, faster than most currently available, but probably not for too long.
Bada better than iOS or WP7? Good question, but definitely debatable. It depends a lot on the user. Bada better than Symbian? Depends on the version of Symbian, I suppose. I liked S60 3rd Edition... it required very little processing power to do almost anything anyone else could do at the time with double the processing power, but lacked the ubiquitous over-sized touch screen. Bada has more personalization than iOS or WP7? Possibly, but compared to Android, it looks almost identical to Android+TouchWiz. Same icons, same widgets, same drop-down bar... not as simple as iOS or WP7. It just looks like a lesser Android to me.
18. iKingTrust (banned) (Posts: 716; Member since: 27 Jul 2011)
LMAO. I love seeing this battle. While everyones sales slip Apple grows. Before you comment know a little something about the stock market. NOT hear say.
22. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
apple's position in the market is stagnant. Everyone else is growing at the expense of symbian and iOS.
Before you comment, know a little something about sales figures, not conjecture based on stock value.
25. iKingTrust (banned) (Posts: 716; Member since: 27 Jul 2011)
If you have a $1 and tomorrow you make $2 sure you can say that your company is doubling. When you are the king of the jungle like Apple and you are the most valuable company in the world making $1m a day the percent looks smaller but the money is there.
So lets make a bet that none of these companies get even close to Apple in your short life time.
35. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
Ill take that bet. King today pauper tomorrow. Apple's success is very recent and due soley to the iphone. If they ever miss a beat that success will drop like a rock. Considering how iOS5 is stealing directly from android 1.5 while Android is charting new territories, I'd say that beat is going to be missed soon.
People LOVE to tear down people that are uber successful and represent something "greater". Remember how they treated Tiger Woods? Apple will get the same treatment if it ever misses a beat. If the iphone5 doesnt sell to expectations, you will see article after article about the "end of iOS", if its true or not.
Add to that you have companies like samsung about to overtake Apple on a personal "most phones sold" list. Granted Apple makes more per device since samsung covers all phone types, but it wont take too many more sales to make that up, especially with the flagship SGS2 outselling the iphone4 by a 2 to1 margin in some countries. How it will run in america remains to be seen.
Apple makes a crap ton of money... right now.. 5 years ago they sure did not, and who knows if they will 5 years from now. The only constant is change.
20. hepresearch (unregistered)
Thought of a good caption for the article picture...
"... Yes, I know that I have already gone bald! My hair fell out years ago, and these liver spots started to develop, but I will, I WILL rule the universe with an iron fist! I will have the world in my grasp... and I will do it before my teeth fall out, too! You mock me now, but you will mourn soon enough..."
47. tedkord (Posts: 7368; Member since: 17 Jun 2009)
Nope, too long. Try this:
61. hepresearch (unregistered)
shoot that's awesome, and I just watched the Wrath of Khan the other day... +1 for tedkord
21. jthiagesan (Posts: 104; Member since: 20 Apr 2011)
The samething happened to android when they launched first, they have not had much market but now they rule the battle. Come on MS, you still have chances to grow
26. Dj21o (Posts: 437; Member since: 19 May 2011)
Hey Balmer, want to know why you can't sell Windows Phones?
BECAUSE YOU OFFER ALL OF THE GOOD HANDSETS TO AT&T AND VERIZON. Why buy a tiny phone that weighs 5lbs, when I can get the GSII or the iPhone? I would love to have the HD7S or the new Samsung Focus S! LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS!!!
62. nwright94 (unregistered)
The focus is very light =) lighter than the iPhone 4.
29. KineticArc (Posts: 11; Member since: 29 Jun 2011)
From my point of view, not having enough phones on the market; having a severely fragmented release schedule on the major carriers; and a personally unattractive phone selection from the current crop of Windows Phone 7 devices has led to the lackluster sales.
I did a very brief check, and saw that Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile have only one (1) device listed as having Windows Phone 7 (Verizon: HTC Trophy, Sprint: HTC Arrive, T-Mobile: HTC HD7), as compared to the plethora of Android devices. These are banal phones compared to most of the Android devices. AT&T has more choice with four times as much as the other carriers, though none of these phones have received the panegyrics as their iOS/Android counterparts.
If their intent is to have a release schedule similar to Apple's, then the quality of their phones needs to increase to compensate for the rapid release cycle of Android devices. Android has been successful in part to having the market saturation from a rapid release cycle of hardware partners, as well as having powerful hardware. Also, having hardware partners release phones on ALL of the four major carriers at once would significantly broaden their market penetration. Instead, the consumer is left with a seemingly anachronistic device. Aligning device release schedules on multiple carriers to a few weeks apart would help in making the device feel more chronologically correct. In other words, the device wouldn't feel as dated come release time.
These are just my opinions, but I do believe that if Microsoft wants to do better in the phone market, then consumers need to be apprised of their release schedule intent, hardware partners need to adhere to this plan, and the overall quality of the phones need to increase.
32. Dj21o (Posts: 437; Member since: 19 May 2011)
+1. They are expecting to blow out sales with no selection of good quality devices. No wonder Samsung is leaving WP7, they can't make any money! And that is HUGE with GSII and their beautiful screens/processors they have been putting in the phones.
Balmer continues to say "We aren't selling.", but whose fault is that? I personally love the WP7 UI, but lack of devices and no support will always kill a company.
36. remixfa (Posts: 14255; Member since: 19 Dec 2008)
if samsung actually leaves WP7 remains to be seen. If the next 2 phones they are releasing flop (and one of them is simply an SGS2 with WP7 and a lesser processor), then yea... but if they start making money this year off wp7, u can bet they will stick around. who knows.
64. Dj21o (Posts: 437; Member since: 19 May 2011)
I honestly hope they do. I'd love to have a decent WP7.
31. jroc74 (Posts: 5537; Member since: 30 Dec 2010)
“We haven’t sold quite as many as I would have liked,”
No &% Sherlock...lol
33. dandirk (Posts: 187; Member since: 04 Aug 2011)
I agree with many here... Not enough selection in the states right now.
With all the Win8 news, I would seriously look at WM7 phone, but not with only 1 choice (that is pretty dated already) on each carrier.
With Win8 hype and mango, they could make a move to improve. They REALLY have to get it done this next year imho. Many contracts for the early smartphone days are coming up... aka OGD (like me)... If I choose android thats 2 years I will not buy a windows phone...
I have this feeling that MS's window of opportunity is closing (at least in the phone market)