Officials comment on the Verizon court order: if the NSA doesn't mine phone calls, the terrorists win
0. phoneArena 06 Jun 2013, 07:55 posted on
Finally there are some comments from the administration defending the practice, which say, as you could have guessed even before security officials speak, that data mining of call logs is necessary to thwart terrorist threats and the like. The leaked court order was stamped by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court on April 25 and lasts about three months...
This is a discussion for a news. To read the whole news, click here
1. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
Welcome to post-9/11 America. Check some of your civil rights at the door and trust gov't claims that this is why there hasn't been another major attack since.
20. MikeG77 (Posts: 379; Member since: 24 Nov 2008)
Ben Franklin said it best "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither"
23. QWIKSTRIKE (Posts: 940; Member since: 09 Mar 2010)
To use the "terrorist" language to manipulate an agenda seems to be the way of the government thus far! The Oliver Stone documentary said it best when it said that the Bush/Cheney administration coined the war on terrorism because in this war anyone and everyone can be labeled a terrorist, and its a war that can never be won. Meaning they can levy the word "terrorist" and hope to get public sentiment to rally to the cause of furthering their own agenda!
24. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
Close. They declared "war" on terrorism knowing that it can never be defeated, so that we can remain at a perpetual state of war, filling the coffers of the military industry. And giving the executive branch leeway to further meddle in the affairs of foreign nations declared to be "evil" or "terrorist".
38. lsutigers (Posts: 803; Member since: 08 Mar 2009)
Well the federal government has a huge surveillance system called DCSNet (FBI Digital Collection System Network). It can intercept/wiretap any phone call, landline or wireless on any carrier and/or text message at any given time. It's run by Sprint for the gov't on a dedicated fiber backbone network. Not sure if this is what the article is referring to but it sure sounds like it.
41. networkdood (Posts: 6329; Member since: 31 Mar 2010)
The true terrorists of the world reside in Washington D.C.
2. vandroid (Posts: 323; Member since: 04 Sep 2012)
The government has already won ... Oops I mean terrorists
3. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)
They just want to have full control on citizens and terrorism is just an excuse.
7. Retro-touch (Posts: 268; Member since: 24 Oct 2011)
When something happens, that's when you'll be the first one complaining that the government didn't do enough. Better safe than sorry, they're not listening to calls and there's a chance they can track some terrorist activities, that's worth it IMO if it can help prevent people from dying, a life is worth much more than someone's privacy
9. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)
Sometimes the government itself and attracts the terrorism. ;)
10. msa1988 (Posts: 417; Member since: 30 Mar 2010)
In theory, this is a great idea, and I want to agree with you so bad - i just can't. Think about all the scumbags in the white house. You honestly think they are looking out for the "best interest of the US citizens?" You're blind if you think this.
12. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
There's more truth to your statement than most of America would like to believe. At the risk of going completely off-topic and into a massive political discussion... OBL wouldn't have planned those attacks if we hadn't meddled in the affairs of the Arab world for the last century. But you weren't allowed to say things like that after 9/11, because that makes you a "blame America firster".
14. PhoneArenaUser (Posts: 5498; Member since: 05 Aug 2011)
"At the risk of going completely off-topic and into a massive political discussion..."
I agree, it is PhoneArena.com - site about mobile technologies and we shouldn't go into political discussion, it will cause only headaches, let's keep political junk away. I'm moving to the next article. :)
13. MikeG77 (Posts: 379; Member since: 24 Nov 2008)
Retro I agree with you that a persons life is worth more than someones privacy BUT i think your missing the point in regards to why people are angry about what the NSA is doing. The issue people are having is that the gov't is requesting your phone records with out getting a WARRANT. What if the Police showed up at your door and told you they wanted to search your home....are you going to let them? You would probably ask them to provide a warrant that legally gives them the ability to do so. Thats how the law works!
The current administration ran around saying how transparent they are and yet they are not. They have continued to use the Patriot Act as a guide and have also expanded its usage outside of what it was inteded for. They continue to have scandal after scandal and now they use the escuse of national security to circumvent the law. I want you to honestly ask yourself where do you draw the line in regards to what the gov't can do?
15. vandroid (Posts: 323; Member since: 04 Sep 2012)
Theyve been doing this for along time everyone phone call text you ever sent isn't gone they have them and can access them when ever they want
19. MikeG77 (Posts: 379; Member since: 24 Nov 2008)
I'm not saying they haven't been doing this all ready but the carriers store the info and if when the gov't wants to acquire it they should follow the law. That means they need to have probably cause and warrant.
17. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
I'm disappointed in the ways the current administration has continued or even expanded the Patriot Act and related civil rights violations. (This is still on-topic btw, since the topic is phone record privacy.) The fact is that candidate Obama and President Obama had to be different people - one was speaking to our hopes (more transparency, closing Guantanamo, cheaper health care), the other had to deal with the realities of governing. And one of those realities is that they need to balance public safety and civil rights.
Just imagine if they had repealed USA PATRIOT and closed Guantanamo, and then a few months later we had a major terrorist attack on US soil with thousands of dead Americans. Save us, President Gingrich!
43. networkdood (Posts: 6329; Member since: 31 Mar 2010)
When something happens? LOL!!! Yeah, when an 'event' happens....like 9/11? Like most flase flag events, there are 'tests' being ran that very same day....smoke and mirrors is a favorite of our government. 'War games' and lax security conveniently on the day of such an 'event'.
16. Daftama (Posts: 592; Member since: 03 Nov 2012)
P.A.U couldn't agree more...ppl r controlled more than they think they are...
4. trexnkrumpets (Posts: 44; Member since: 15 Jan 2013)
Big whoop. I say go for it, let them listen in as well - under warrant. Your own fault for attracting their attention.
5. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
By "your", you mean me personally as a Verizon customer? I could be a terrorist.
6. platformwars (Posts: 86; Member since: 14 Sep 2012)
I don't think there's any problem with this.. i mean... if you are not doing anything wrong.. then you have nothing to hide.. This is just another way of making sure that a disaster like 9/11 doesn't happen again.. Which is good.. We don't want anything like that happening EVER AGAIN..
32. Zero0 (Posts: 592; Member since: 05 Jul 2012)
Backwards it saying you're. It should go, "If you're not doing anything wrong, they have nothing to see."
Welcome to America, where the Fourth Amendment is an actual thing that exists. Have probable cause to say that I'm doing something wrong and want evidence against me? Fine by me. Just show me the warrant.
As for preventing another 9/11, we've tightened up dramatically without the Patriot Act. The TSA actually isn't THAT bad, to be honest. That's a huge plus for security. But the big one is the way intelligence has been re-aligned in the time since. The NSA, CIA, FBI, and DoD (and other acronyms, I assume) all share information better than they had in the past. Apparently, a bunch of divisions of government each had tiny hints about a potential attack, but nothing substantial enough to determine anything meaningful. The speculation is that, if they could have put together all of the evidence, 9/11 might have been caught before it happened. The National Security Council allows for this to happen in a much more efficient way than it did pre-9/11.
35. true1984 (Posts: 683; Member since: 23 May 2012)
well the tsa hasnt really helped any and it was more efficient before the tsa
34. true1984 (Posts: 683; Member since: 23 May 2012)
because as an american citizen you have a basic right to privacy. what this does is state that everyone is guilty until proven innocent. so it shouldn't be "if you didn't do anything you have nothing to worry about" it should be "why am i being treated like i did something wrong?" it our constitutional right not to be treated like criminals. and its scary since our president is a constitutional law professor
8. papss (unregistered)
This is the reason that has been talked about many times with regards to google.. Not them specifically but they the government seem to do what they want and call it public safety. Scary world we live in.
11. AJmeBOY (Posts: 34; Member since: 16 Dec 2011)
Had an oversight agency been receiving information about the IP addresses of people accessing sites such as the al-Queda Inspire magazine that taught the Boston Marathoners how to make a pressure cooker bomb then perhaps it could have been thwarted in the first place. If you're not doing anything wrong or aiding someone else in doing something wrong you should have nothing to fear. Ultimately, look at it as job creation. More jobs for people to look at and analyze the data and more software jobs to create technology that identifies patterns. Safety, security, prevention, and job creation!
18. MikeG77 (Posts: 379; Member since: 24 Nov 2008)
Haha so your saying it ok for the gov't to acquire your phone calls with no warrant under the guise of public safety and job creation? If thats the case your being very foolish as the gov't was all ready aware via the Russian gov't that there was an issue with 1 of the Boston bombers.
21. Droid_X_Doug (Posts: 5993; Member since: 22 Dec 2010)
First off, this is the Verizon business unit that serves businesses, so the black helicopters aren't coming to get your guns just yet. However, all is not well in the land of baseball, apple pie and Chevrolet. This is a research project for NSA. They are developing an algorithm to attempt to make predictions based on patterns. The original work was done in WWII against Japan. When the Japanese would change their codes, there would be a brief period where the wireless traffic could not be read. When that happened, the US would analyze patterns (who was talking to who, where the traffic originated, etc.).
Fast forward to just after 9/11, and John Poindexter (remember him from Iran Contra?), wanted to launch a pattern analysis project based on credit & debit card transactions. That hit a little too close to home for even Republicans, and the project was shelved.
Unfortunately the cat got out of the bag. Just like with drones and targeted assassination, Obama's administration has taken an R concept and expanded it. And the Supremes have gone along with it. With the recent ruling on DNA sampling, the 4th Ammendment to the US Constitution has been vitiated
22. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
But like every other libertarian concept, we're completely for it until people start dying. All that "big government" beaurocracy conservatives rail against? The FDA, the EPA, etc. were established because people were dying and the people went crying to the government to please, please, PLEASE pass more laws to protect us!
33. 14545 (Posts: 1242; Member since: 22 Nov 2011)
I get sick and tired of this argument. PEOPLE STILL DIE WITH THE FDA, EPA, ETC. Look at the amount of deaths every year for LEGAL PRESCRIPTION DRUGS. It's just now that the government controls it, you don't hear about it.
I don't want or need the government "protection"(if there really is such a thing).
36. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
And I can tell you that the numbers of dead due to misprescription, overdose, abuse and adulteration would be hundreds of times worse if the government didn't regulate industry. Read up on the history of the FDA if you don't believe me. Heroin used to be a cough medication. Some companies accidentally put antifreeze in children's medicines. Welcome to the 1920s.
The libertarians will say that industries will regulate themselves, bad press will bring down the offenders, and civil lawsuits will bring justice. How much do you trust corporations, the press, and lawyers?
40. YaBoiDre10 (Posts: 84; Member since: 15 Nov 2012)
Dude the FDA is no better! Look up how many companies pay the FDA to approve their drugs without them testing it.
44. networkdood (Posts: 6329; Member since: 31 Mar 2010)
Very true, and now Monsanto is heavily involved with the FDA. Even if a pharma company gets denied by the FDA to sell their drug here, they just peddle it to another country.
49. 14545 (Posts: 1242; Member since: 22 Nov 2011)
Thank you Networkdood and YaBoi. Some people will just believe the government is our savior in the face of all evidence otherwise. Without government there wouldn't major wars, there wouldn't be some psuedo robin hood BS, etc. Will there be a few pitfalls without government, sure. But the good would FAR outweigh the bad.
50. 14545 (Posts: 1242; Member since: 22 Nov 2011)
Oh good grief. That was a time of very little science behind medicine and how it was manufactured. How much do you know about pharma now? I work in pharma and I can tell you, without the FDA, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE for the WORSE. I would put every last dollar I earn for the rest of my life on it. Heck, in my industry, there are companies that have been issued some 20+ warnings to fix their issues before getting shut down. But guess what, you don't hear about that. Wanna know why? It's because the FDA is our savior and they keep us safe........
I would trust the corporations, press, and lawyers even more if they couldn't buy off the government to get their way. Then they would actually have to answer to the public. Right now companies don't have to answer to the public in many cases because they are hidden under the guise of "XYZ" approved, so they can't do any wrong......Plus I trust every corp more than I ever would any government.
25. YaBoiDre10 (Posts: 84; Member since: 15 Nov 2012)
THINK ABOUT IT. Back in the day it was the "Jews" who were evil and we had to stop them and their "communism" and now its the "Muslims" that are evil and we have to stop their "terrorism" America always has a boogey man to take our rights away further and further. The "War on Terror" is nothing but a war on resources......Oil & Opium. Im glad to see people waking up tho! haha
27. tchad78 (Posts: 12; Member since: 17 Aug 2012)
Let's see, America has always been about freedom. Terrorists want to destroy America - so the media says. So if we remove freedoms, such as allowing phone taps or restricting any parts of the Bill of Rights, the terrorists have won.
TSA, NSA, Patriot Act - Dude, the Terrorists won already. Fight the "War on Terror"? disband the TSA and remove the Patriot Act.
28. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
...and then watch the media frenzy when the terrorists slip through a hole in our anti-terrorism efforts. There must be something good in the TSA and PATROIT that justifies their continued existence. If/when that gets removed and there's another terrorist attack (even a relatively minor one like Boston), the talking heads will claim we were "weak on terror", Congress will flip out, and we'll end up with another intrusive program in its place.
51. 14545 (Posts: 1242; Member since: 22 Nov 2011)
Sure, there are plenty of things good with the TSA and PATRIOT act........Good for the stupid psychopathic politicians and their wanting to rule the world. Now for the freedoms we were afforded in the constitution, there is nothing about that agency or the act. Anyone that gives liberty for safety, deserves neither liberty nor safety. ESPECIALLY if you steal my liberties in the process.
29. tatail (Posts: 232; Member since: 08 Jan 2010)
And it comes to me as a surprise that those who planned such a big attack like 9/11 to be fool enough to use post paid or registered SIMs for their calls?
45. networkdood (Posts: 6329; Member since: 31 Mar 2010)
'those who planned' - translation....the U,S. gov't.
31. YaBoiDre10 (Posts: 84; Member since: 15 Nov 2012)
I'm gonna get hell on this but I personally think "Al-CIAda" had nothing to do with 9/11. Osama was nothing but a informant and just like other countries who used False Flag Attacks to take rights away from the people. Does anyone else agree?
37. roldefol (Posts: 3260; Member since: 28 Jan 2011)
Look, I don't trust the government, but I believe al-Qaida existed prior to and planned 9/11. OBL didn't plan the attacks, but he approved them. You really think the US wanted to destroy landmarks, attack the DoD and slaughter innocent thousands just to gain "control"?
39. YaBoiDre10 (Posts: 84; Member since: 15 Nov 2012)
History repeats itself dude. It happened when Hitler was in charge and in many other countries. And yes I do believe they will do that. What's so different from them putting fluoride in water and dangerous chemicals in our food. You think that happens for no reason? The government cares not about the American people but of the elite wealthy bankers
46. networkdood (Posts: 6329; Member since: 31 Mar 2010)
The CIA helped formed AL QAEDA during the Russian/Afghan war of the 1980s. Our gov't is the terrorist, our gov't gives nuclear capability to countries such as Iran, our government is also the drug overlord, Why do you think the War on Drugs was never won? For the same reasons with this 'war on terrorism'.
48. YaBoiDre10 (Posts: 84; Member since: 15 Nov 2012)
The government killed black political leaders, created viruses (AIDS), created false flag attacks (9/11) put drugs in black neighborhoods and then lock them up for using them. The government funded the Holocaust it was actually IBM. The Federal Reserve isn't part of the government it's privately owned by the bankers so common sense says they have the power in America and across the globe. The Bankers choose our laws and wars not the American people. Know your history guys!