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How much credit does Apple deserve for the coming mobile 64-bit evolution?

0. phoneArena 18 Dec 2013, 17:21 posted on

There has been a lot of talk over the past few months about the move to 64-bit processors mobile processors. Obviously, the talk began with Apple's surprise announcement that the A7 system-on-a-chip (SoC) that would be found in the iPhone 5s was a 64-bit processor, making it the first 64-bit processor in a smartphone. But, as always happens when Apple does something like this, there is a debate about who was really "first"; so, I wanted to take a look at the entire ecosystem and talk about how much credit Apple really deserves in the coming mobile 64-bit evolution...

This is a discussion for a news. To read the whole news, click here

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 06:04 1

109. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


Without a 64-bit OS, a 64-bit SoC is just about as fast as the Cortex-A15 class in Note3.

Bit number actually matters. And you need both the chip and the OS to be 64-bit.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:16

14. ZeroCide (Posts: 688; Member since: 09 Jan 2013)


He wants to run VM phone OS's, WP, Android, Jolla, Ubuntu and Firefox all running at the same time.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 19:43

38. fanboy1974 (Posts: 1195; Member since: 12 Nov 2011)


I would actually take a quad core processor and 3gb of ram vs. a 64-bit platform. That would have been more useful.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 00:05 4

74. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)


The iPhone could not support that kind of power draw. Notice that every Snapdragon 800 chip is in a phone over 5 inches and every one of them has an oversized battery. Instead Apple developed its own custom SoC that delivers the same raw performance using more advanced ARMv8 instructions, thats better optimized and can run using half the power. I know which one I prefer.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 04:29

97. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


Why? Just to show that you have better specs when the reality is that a dual-core SoC running at 1.2GHz with 1GB RAM with 64bit runs faster than that?

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 19:24

35. superduper (Posts: 150; Member since: 20 Oct 2013)


Overkill in a phone maybe. However, did you notice that this year Apple didn't release a beefed up A7X version of their SoC for the new iPads? This leads me to the conclusion that the A7 was designed primarily for the iPad (rather than the other way round). The iPhone 5s just got a free ride.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 00:06 3

75. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)


Really it just shows that the A7 has more than enough power to account for any differences in display resolution without losing performance.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 17:48 6

7. maherk (Posts: 898; Member since: 10 Feb 2012)


As an android user, I can't but acknowledge the huge part Apple played in revolutionizing the smartphone industry. 1st came the iPhone then the iPad. Hate them or love them, when they start a trend, everyone follows. And I am not saying that Apply doesn't copy, iOS7 is a pure evidence that everyone coppies, but Apple set the standards for touchscreen quality, build quality, memory options, and the mighty app store. Still, I am sticking to Android for the moment, iTunes and the 4" screen are what holding me from going back to iPhone.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:07 5

10. Whateverman (Posts: 3196; Member since: 17 May 2009)


Agree 100%. Apple has always been the company that makes the things that already exist, even better. So why is it they haven't taken serious steps towards making the iPhone better? The look of the OS sucks, using nothing but iTunes sucks, but the OS itself is fantastic. Why not give people the little things we've been looking for, which would make the product even better?

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:30 3

24. JerryTime (Posts: 468; Member since: 09 Nov 2013)


Because people buy their recycled watered down product regardless with blind following. If people stopped buying their phones in such high numbers, they would be forced to change to compete. Apple would have no other choice.

Similar to what happened with iOS 7, and we all know how that turned out.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 21:03

51. bucky (Posts: 1392; Member since: 30 Sep 2009)


what happened with ios 7? im curious.

Also, are you really saying millions and millions of people are completely blind? ....yea must be it.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 00:12 2

77. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)


Yeah I know how that turned out. Millions upon millions of people updated in quick fashion to the most advanced and feature filled version of the OS. Every iPhone is a Nexus device. One of the reasons I switched. Pretty arrogant to assume iPhone users are ignorant to tech buddy.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 01:13 4

82. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


And all those fandroids call themselves "techies" or tech savvys.

And when I point out what Android is doing wrong with ARM compared to Apple, they start attacking me without refuting my arguments.

There are many tech experts around me working on Android. 70% of them use iPhones. The other 30% hate Apple for being so advanced, thus making their job that hard.

Tech savvys choose Android?

What are they? People capable of customizing their widgets?

I'd say. Tech experts prefer iPhone.

And there are reasons.

posted on 21 Dec 2013, 16:50

124. XperiaFanZone (Posts: 1283; Member since: 21 Sep 2012)


Actually, Android fans in general know more about phones than the Apple fans. You probably only know about 64-bit, despite the bashing you do about non-Apple companies; just shows how insecure and threatened you are that Android creates better OS and on better phones. Try using the 64-bit apps compared to the 32-bit apps on the iphone. No difference.

I know a lot of tech experts, most of them use Android phones. And many workplaces force their employees to use iphones and most of them are fed up with that,

posted on 22 Dec 2013, 08:26 1

125. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


I also know dozens of wanna be tech experts that think they're experts just because they have Android. Most android users are like that. Others simply buy a smartphone not knowing what they're buying, or because it's cheap or because it is a known phone. I am in a university taking IT course and it's even worse. The place where you expect people to know anything about tech know nothing and they think they're the experts because they talk about android when they don't even know the specs of they phone they use. What i'm trying to say is most android fans are actually wann be tech experts. I'm not talking this website but most even in here know nothing.

posted on 23 Dec 2013, 12:42

126. XperiaFanZone (Posts: 1283; Member since: 21 Sep 2012)


"The place where you expect people to know anything about tech know nothing and they think they're the experts because they talk about android when they don't even know the specs of they phone they use. "

No, that wasn't my point. It's just that more Android fans know more about phones than Apple fans. That doesn't mean they're tech experts. I know a lot of Android users who know the specs of their phones, as well as the iphones more than the iphone users themselves.

If a lot of iphone users knew about phones, they ould go for Android. It is the truth. But Apple is really good at marketing and that's the only thing making the iphones popular.

posted on 24 Dec 2013, 06:29 1

127. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


What I was saying is that most of Android users are wannabe tech experts, I'm not saying that your friends aren't tech experts, they can sure be and the other truth is that if Android users knew more about what happens under the hood more than just knowing the number of cores or GHz or RAM they would go for the platform, not for just Android, they like because the iPhone has demonstrated that those numbers don't matter in the real world. The A7 is easily on par with any quad-core and it also has a better GPU than 90/95% of the smartphones out there.

posted on 24 Dec 2013, 14:17

128. XperiaFanZone (Posts: 1283; Member since: 21 Sep 2012)


I'm talking about the Android fans in general. There are fans who are a wannabe tech experts, and those who aren't. What I'm saying is that most people who know about phones tend to go for Android since the specs of Android flagships are something that many people would want as well as the user experience. I agree with you about the GHz/RAM/etc.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:01 3

8. darkkjedii (Posts: 11141; Member since: 05 Feb 2011)


Tech continues to advance, chill out guys.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 22:29 1

120. roscuthiii (Posts: 1792; Member since: 18 Jul 2010)


Damn right. Apple took a step forward while everyone was still putting their shoes on. Competition: It's a good thing.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:01 1

9. SAYED-EJAZ (Posts: 224; Member since: 10 Oct 2013)


Apple , apple always..

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:10 1

12. ZeroCide (Posts: 688; Member since: 09 Jan 2013)


Aren't intel atom chips 64 bit. Those have been considered mobile chips. In that case Intel was first. Then apple will take the credit for something yet again.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:18

16. brrunopt (Posts: 504; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)


Marketing , and Apple's field of distortion can create powerful marketing illusions...

" behold, the amazing ""desktop class"" 64 bits CPU "
R: wow....

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:21 3

19. Ninetysix (Posts: 1578; Member since: 08 Oct 2012)


Going to see what you'll post when the next gen phones come out with 64-bit SoCs. Are those going to be marketing gimmicks as well?..lol

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:26

21. brrunopt (Posts: 504; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)


I didn't call them a marketing gimmick but basically yes, until the start coming with more than 3GB RAM....

there are some improvements but nothing "extraordinary" and nowhere close to the main advantage (more RAM)

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:28 2

22. Ninetysix (Posts: 1578; Member since: 08 Oct 2012)


I'm sorry. You called it a marketing illusion.That's changes everything. Since it's currently the fastest SoC out there, its advantage is not real. It's all an illusion.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:36

26. ZeroCide (Posts: 688; Member since: 09 Jan 2013)


It is not currently the fastest SoC i think INTEL and even AMD have faster SoC chips.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:39

28. brrunopt (Posts: 504; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)


Do you even real the messages, of just post that whenever you see the words "marketing" , "gimminck" or something lie that ?
the conversation was about intel having a 64bit mobile SOC (Atom baytrail * ) before Apple , but them beeing the ones getting that title because of the marketing..

and for the last time , THE A7 IS NOT THE MOST POWERFYLL SOC AROUND....

* and you can even consider some of the Y-series, since they are fanless..

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 21:04

52. bucky (Posts: 1392; Member since: 30 Sep 2009)


thats awesome! where are these chips used?

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 21:23 2

55. brrunopt (Posts: 504; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)


Tablets .

Asus T100
Dell Venue 8
Dell Venue 11
Toshiba Encore
Lenovo Mixx 2
HP Omni 10

and more on the way....

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 22:07

64. Ninetysix (Posts: 1578; Member since: 08 Oct 2012)


OMG...Android/Windows tablets with 64bit SoC and less than 4GB of RAM. Marketing illusions FTW. How do these compare to the iPad Air in terms of performance/battery life?

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 05:12 2

102. brrunopt (Posts: 504; Member since: 15 Aug 2013)


The venue 11 can be configured with 4Gb RAM, and even 8GB with a i3/5/7 .
As for the other was the manufacturers choice by going with the Z3740 (max 2Gb RAM),

The point is, if the award is for the "first 64bits mobile SOC" that would be Intel , The "first 64bits mobile SOC with 4Gb RAM" would be dell/intel
Apple wint the award for "first 64bits smartphone SOC" ....

The battery is at the same level

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:17

15. toiletcleaner (Posts: 186; Member since: 10 Oct 2012)


Why I need this when I cant use it? that was just marketing rating only. Apple = PPV

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:19 3

17. Ninetysix (Posts: 1578; Member since: 08 Oct 2012)


When Qualcomm and Samsung release their 64-bit SoC, will it be a marketing gimmick as well?

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:31 8

25. SAYED-EJAZ (Posts: 224; Member since: 10 Oct 2013)


When samsung brings it , it will have 4GB Ram not like 1GB.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 00:14 2

78. bigstrudel (Posts: 518; Member since: 20 Aug 2012)


And it still won't be enough to run TouchWiz smoothly.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 18:36 5

27. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


Of course they are.

Without a 64-bit OS, 64-bit SoC is utterly useless.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 19:03

32. grahaman27 (Posts: 347; Member since: 05 Apr 2013)


Review my posts above.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 19:40 3

37. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


Done, just proving your arguments being nothing more than misleading information consisting of bad excuses.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 04:35

99. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


When that happens everyone will say it's NOT a gimmick. Like this year when Samsung announced the S4 everyone in here was disappointed and a month later it was the best thing ever.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 19:56

41. vishu9 (Posts: 251; Member since: 03 Mar 2011)


I wouldn't care for a 64-bit Android.. I'd rather Google focus more on the improvements that it has been doing like Project Butter and Project Svelte.. Good article Michael H.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 20:00 8

42. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


The currently top ranking apps at the US AppStore :

12 Days Gift 7 64
Angry Birds Go 6 64
Facebook Messenger 6 64
Duolingo 6 64
QuizUp 5 32
LEGO StarWars 6 64
ElfYourself by OfficeMax 6 64
SnapChat 5 32
Spotify 6 64
Match the Dots 5 32

7 of the top 10 apps already run in 64-bit.

And there are some low-budget, short-lived apps like QuizUp and Match the Dots that distort the 64-bit landscape.
SnapChat is probably the only meaningful app still running in 32-bit.

Let's talk about steady-selling "killer" apps :
Apple's : all in 64-bit (self explanatory)
Google's : all in 64-bit (surprise, surprise, even Chrome runs in 64-bit)
Instagram : 64-bit
Facebook : 64-bit
Twitter : 64-bit
Tumblr : 64-bit
Skype : 32-bit

I really don't understand why so many renown sites like PA are still talking about "future benefits" of 64-bit computing when they are already present on iOS.

Optimized for 64-bit? There is no such thing for normal consumers, at least unless it's something extremely special and focused. Even on Windows, I can't name a single consumer application that absolutely require 64-bit power. There might be some for institutes though.

If an app is built with 64-bit toolchain, and the generated 64-bit machine code runs on a 64-bit OS, it's pure 64-bit computing. period.

And it's PRESENT on iOS.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 20:57 1

48. androiphone20 (Posts: 1422; Member since: 10 Jul 2013)


Jake, you should have seen who wrote this article I mean that guy writes good articles but sometimes.
.not-so-much. He holds credit for that and that's why Android fans quickly jump in when he writes anything that sounds a little bit off about apple. I am not really a code person but I got some mixed signals in that article

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 04:27 2

96. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


Finally someone that understands. People just look at the fact that Apple made it and bash them because of that instead of looking at the benefits that it can bring.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 20:01 1

43. superfans (Posts: 142; Member since: 30 Jul 2012)


Funny how these were the comments that Apple used to get when they introduced apps store which turned out to be a major success and where everyone in the industry started to copy it . So you can laugh how useless 64 bit is because 64 bit is the future anyway !

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 20:12 2

44. Bootutu (Posts: 187; Member since: 11 Jul 2013)


Apple 64bit is gimmick and marketing bullsh*t, 64bit will be fully utilized when Exynos and Snapdragon realease it with 4GB of ram and running ART(Android runtime) in Kitkat 64bit.,

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 21:06 1

53. bucky (Posts: 1392; Member since: 30 Sep 2009)


lets see how those apps run. The true gimmicks are the useless specs they are selling u fanboys.

A dual core spanked everything youre talking about

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 04:24 1

95. joaolx (Posts: 353; Member since: 16 Aug 2011)


64 bit is not just about RAM. Why can't people understand that?

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 20:29

45. Bootutu (Posts: 187; Member since: 11 Jul 2013)


Virtually no speed difference in opening apps between the 64bit and 32 bit iOS, goes to show that 1GB ram is the limiting factor here, wait for a proper implementation in Android and see the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouP6HWOmwoQ

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 22:04

63. Cyberchum (Posts: 269; Member since: 24 Oct 2012)


Credit you said?? Well credit to them for spurring an unnecessary competition. The android folks all busy stretching the pixel wars over the boundary so Apple felt left behind and took on this mantle. Why should I credit then for something that is irrelevant for now and couple years to come, when are they going to come up with a phone that has 4GB of RAM, why should a phone even have that; how many does my PC have? Samsung brought the challenge and others are joining but had they optimised or even gotten rid of touchwiz, they could have channeled those resources to something better

It's very sad because the competition will always join such useless development or they'll feel left behind.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 07:49

113. bucky (Posts: 1392; Member since: 30 Sep 2009)


The point is they came out with a wonderful little chip that's not battery hungry and incredibly fast. Also, the 64 bit OS is going to be the first to mature. It makes perfect sense.

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 22:23

66. davenycept (Posts: 172; Member since: 03 Jul 2012)


We have to realize Apple isn't about trendsetting..it's about their selling point...I'm am android guy but what Apple does the best is their marketing... they can try to sell you a simple pen but the time they're done selling you that pen they've made you think that its the first ever and the best ever...corny but clever and it works

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 22:25

67. davenycept (Posts: 172; Member since: 03 Jul 2012)


We have to realize Apple isn't about trendsetting..it's about their selling point...I'm am android guy but what Apple does the best is their marketing... they can try to sell you a simple pen but the time they're done selling you that pen they've made you think that its the first ever and the best ever...corny but clever and it works

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 22:26

68. HildyJ (Posts: 118; Member since: 11 Aug 2012)


There seem to be a whole lot of people here who have no idea what the 64 bits are used for. A 64 bit chip allows for 64 bit instructions operating on 64 bit registers. Absent anything else, this slows the system down because the CPU has to process more bits per instruction. With a RISC system, like ARM and unlike x86, the increased instruction length doesn't buy you much but the increased register size allows you to address (and, thus, use) over 3GB of RAM. They also allow greater precision in numeric calculations which might help graphics processing in systems without a GPU.

To me, this adds up to a marketing ploy that will only bear technological fruit when phones or tablets start offering 4GB of RAM. Until then, I'd rather have more cores (for increased parallelism) or greater clock speed (for more FLOPS).

posted on 18 Dec 2013, 23:02 4

70. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


What are you smoking?

If you want an ARM64 register to operate with full 64-bit width, access it with Xn, otherwise, do it with Wn.

The ARM64's instructions are encoded in 32-bit in length, just like the ARM32's.

Where did you read the BS above?

It's really ridiculous to see people inventing all those BSs only to bash Apple.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 02:08 2

83. JMartin22 (limited) (Posts: 973; Member since: 30 Apr 2013)


You invent BS just to bash Android. Using concept words you don't apply in the right context and using drawn-out paragraphs and sentences to make yourself look smart, while trying to confuse and overpower people with such gaudy tactics.You're doing your best to validate iOS; that I give you credit for.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 02:17 3

84. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


Please point out what I've been inventing so far.

You can't, and that makes your arguments baseless.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 04:01 1

91. shiv179 (Posts: 9; Member since: 08 Aug 2012)


@JakeLee Having read all your comments on this article, I commend you for your insight.
However I agree with JMartin22: you make it seem as if Android is doomed and Google won't be able to solve the 64-bit conundrum.
iOS 7 has its issues with 64-bit, detailed in Anandtech, so there is still room for improvement.
The apps you listed that support 64-bit on iOS 7: is there really a noticable difference in performance and battery life?
I have yet to see the numbers.

Once again, thank you for your insight, it's refreshing to read!

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 05:02 1

101. SAYED-EJAZ (Posts: 224; Member since: 10 Oct 2013)


Jake , while I agree with but feels you are being oversmart ...
Each sentance your greediness towards ios understandable.

posted on 19 Dec 2013, 05:23 4

103. JakeLee (banned) (Posts: 1021; Member since: 02 Nov 2013)


Google will pull out 64-bit Android next year, no doubt in that.
It might be still possible that the GS5 early next year comes with 64-bit Android.
That would be an amazing performance considering all the workloads, and I wouldn't hesitate praising this kind of exceptional achievement. I would be one of the people praising Sammy the most in fact.

But the real problem begins after the launch :
- Dalvik is hardly any faster unless Google created a separate 64-bit Dalvik architecture
- 32-bit native apps are more of nuisances due to the switching overheads.

The latter one is a serious problem and probably a deciding factor for 64-bit Android's success.

It's a piece of cake for iOS devs making their apps 64-bit feasible : Build with XCode5 targeting iOS6 or higher. That's all. XCode generates both 32 and 64-bit binaries in a package that's submitted to Apple for approval.
It's easy and targeting iOS6 or higher is also no problem considering the market share of 96%.

It's different on Android. The devs have to build two separate binaries with different AppIDs.
Will the devs do this kind of extra work for a market share of probably less than 2% next year?

I wouldn't.

The big question would be which version to target as minimum for 64-bit deployments.

Apple did the extra job rolling this requirement back to iOS6, not iOS7 - an extremely wise decision.

The Google I know will set this requirement at the most recent 5, the first 64-bit Android version - another deal breaker. (I hope I'm wrong on this)

Assuming I'm right, there will be absolutely no incentive writing 64-bit NDK apps.

You purchase a brand new 64-bit Android phone with high expectations. The SDK apps aren't any bit faster and running a single NDK app slows down the whole system.

WTF????

What would be the selling point of 64-bit Android phones then? Can you imagine Note3 smoking Note4?

Believe it or not, I'm not an Android hater. I just can't stand all those lies like the one above discounting Apple's achievements. And there are TONS of them.

I'm telling you all this because I want Google to do the right thing. You Android fans should urge Google to :
- improve the ADK for more streamlined deployments like Apple
- do something against the fragmentation, forcing the devs to target higher OS versions
- roll back the requirement for 64-bit deployment all the way down to 4.0 ICS at least
- support NDK devs financially for developing separate 64-bit apps
- help weaker OEMs like HTC

Am I asking for too much? Probably not. Google has the power and resources.

And you Android Fans should stop hyping Google and bashing Apple.
Apple's move to 64-bit is by far the greatest threat Android has been facing so far - a giant sword aimed at its neck.

Stop discounting this.

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